Internal Martial Arts

[ryanhall]

What do you say?

Unfortunately, I can't really disagree with you. The mind is powerful and it guides the body, but it won't let you use the Force. Thinking that you will be burned doesn't cause you to blister. That's like saying that if someone held an empty gun to my head and I thought it was loaded, my head would explode when the hammer clicked even though the chamber was empty. Though this should be apparent to everyone already, it's not going to happen (too bad for all those Combat TKD lovers out there).

Ryan,
Myth Moderator and Self-Proclaimed Bane of All Who Propogate Silly Nonsense in the Martial Arts

[eXcessiveForce]

Sorry guys but I've seen the studies. When I got my Degree in psychology I saw all sorts of things about external reaction to perception.

A basic way to do it is to close your eyes and imagine you are holding a lemon. get as vivid a picture as you can and then imagine taking a bite of it. Go threw the motions. Most people will salivate. That is autosuggestion.

Elephants when little are tied to big stakes that they cannot pull out of the ground. as they get older they only use little tent stakes. The will has been broken and the elephant does not try to escape because it believes it is hopeless.

Other people have reportedly been able to bleed on command and then stop.

there are people who get sick just because they believe they are going to be sick.

The mind controls the body. How many times have you been severly injured and not felt it until you looked at it. It happens to me all the time. I got up and walked a little bit after breaking my ankle. then it gave out and when I looked at it, it started to hurt. Same basic idea when I broke my hand.

it's okay though cops are very rarely educated.

[dragonboy]

its all good

there is no such thing as a bad art, just bad artists. as bruce said it doesnt matter where it comes from if you can use it, its yours!!!!!!!

[ryanhall]

EF,
Firstoff, I'm not a cop (I know you were referring to Bitty, but just thought I'd clarify), and I consider myself to be fairly educated. Secondly, experienced cops can be some of the most knowledgable people around when it comes to their field. The mind can control physical sensation to a degree, but it cannot cause the body to blister spontaneously. Walking on your broken ankle was not the mind guiding the body, it was your body's response to trauma. It's akin to a soldier going into shock after being grievously wounded in battle. Your body goes into survival mode to prevent death for as long as possible. When you look at the wound and better comprehend the extent of the injury, your mind can begin to take over. Until then, however, it's just a natural reaction.

As for your point about the elephant or hypochondriacs becoming sick, this is a psychological phenomena that is a result of YEARS of conditioning of the mind. The elephant doesn't possess the analytical capabilities to understand that it can escape. The sick-thinking person believes themself to be weak, and their body responds IN TIME to this belief. Just because I think I have the ebola virus for 30 years doesn't mean that I will contract it.

The mind is an incredible thing, but it definitely has limits. We watch too many science fiction movies that lead us to believe in supernatural powers. Just because I believe that I am stronger than a world class bodybuilder does not mean that I am. My belief in my ability to win against an opponent or an attacker is key in allowing me to fight to my potential, but it will not grant me abilities that I do not have.

[Guest]

Akchewally i an fery edukated.

The mind can have an effect on the body. When we see, for example, people who have been splattered by a car we do our best to tell them that they are not badly hurt. This can have a real effect on their recivery, as they really think they are ok.

But it does not magically heal them. Rather, it stops the downward slide into panic and shock that makes them worse.

Come on, EF, put up or shut up. Go on the telly and make yourself outlift a powerlifetr, or grow a new arm or something. It isn't going to happen, is it?

[chris davis 200]

hi people,

wang shu jin WAS an undisputed fighting master. He was not a competition fighter and did not actively seek challanges.

He was actively sought for challanges. This does not happen to people that are no good, or those that do an art that is easily defeated. Think about it!

Jack dempsey was not there to challange him but somehow things got to a point where they were toe to toe. wang was quite famous for telling people what he though, Karate masters took the brunt of his jibes about the external martial arts, and he probably mentioned something.

The ensuing sparring did not last very long. Dempsey attempted every boxing technique in the book and ended up being humiliated quite badley. Wang didnt knock him out but knocked him around quite a bit and was the clear clear winner. Dempsey apparrantly stopped saying that there was no way for him to win.

i will traul through my info to find something substantial and unbiased!

I admit being punched in the stomach can be done without chi. But let me ask you this, a fully unprotected FULL POWER strike to your stomach by a champion heavyweight boxer? do you think you could handle that?????

You all seem so convinced about your views, well i am convinced by my experience and i would not like to say that taking a full power strike of such caliber without ANY backward movement or ill effect is easy, just because you know it is coming. Are you serious!!!!

The question is does it matter. Effectiveness is the key. If a system is more effective with chi and without it. who cares. Train with what works for you.

I totally agree. Internal arts and there body principles has given me the edge against karate, taekwondo, boxers, Muay thai boxers, judo and others. I had trained in these styles for a short time and was able to spar with people regularly.

Internal Arts work for me, to say they dont work is rubbish, they just dont work for you. this has more to do with the internal arts.

Have any of you been to a reputable hsing I or ba gua school and asked them to SHOW you the internal arts? I wont say tai chi cause you probably wont find one!!

If any of you live near BK frantzis or Mike Patterson or Serge Augier (truely excellent fighter - http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/a...mbat/index.htm) seek them out and ask them to show you, to comment without experienceing is just nieve.

Cheers
Chris

[pcarney]

My two cents...

I've studied some tai chi and chi kung, and I do think there's something to it. I very much respect the sifu who taught it, and he has a fluidity of movement beyond any other martial artist I've met. However, I draw the line at some of the more outlandish claims that internal martial artists make. For example- in the tai chi seminar I studied, several students claimed that they knew a man who could transmit his chi through the PHONE, and heal people on the other end. Whadda Huh?

We did a fair amount of chi kung breathing excercises (which I still practice to center myself), and, on the last night, the sifu had us line up infront of him. He then did some breathing and moved down the line, moving his finger in a little circle. He told us we could 'feel' his chi. When he came down, damn near if I couldn't feel it. I was blown away.
However.
I had been taking the class for a few weeks at that point (12 week seminar). The whole time we were told that chi could be projected like this, and we were ready to believe it. I would like to have him try this again, to see if I could feel it 'cold'.

Once again, I do think there is something the chi cultivation, based on this sifu. Whether its building up bio electrical 'power' or just getting to know your body through the meditation and such, I don't know.

BTW- don't know if any of you have seen the cable program about the world's 'Top 10 Arts' (silly program). One of the arts was 'Combat Ki' taught by some rotund karateka. The students demonstrated these amazing powers by taking blows to the neck, belly, back, etc..all after a couple of minutes of breathing and prep time. Like was said earlier, I'd like to know how chi is gonna protect the family jewels. Plus, this is a old trick..the same one that lead to Houdini's death!

[chris davis 200]

here is another account of the wang dempsey thing.

'Was invited to visit Wang as a real test of a couple of things. Wang did the usual invitation to "punch the paunch" ... which Dempsey did with the usual effect on Wang (none). Wang was then encouraged to show Dempsey his "corkscrew punch" (hand starts on the partner and moves inwards - no backswing or buildup). Dempsey was suitably impressed, and they left with some mutual respect.'

Still looking for a web link!

[BlackMaskX]

Good books or websites?

Does anyone know any good *practical, down-to-earth* internal martial arts websites or books?

Chris, does your IMA place have a website, by any chance?

[chris davis 200]

The school i train at does not have a website.

but here are some that are quite good.

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/index.htm

Serge augier of Natural boxing - good videos of training in internal systems. Click on videos to see what he does, the training is quite good and i think you will all be supprised!!

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/

This guy is a very practical fighter and although studying many systems, he is mainly trained in Hsing-i and Ba gua and these are what his essense of change style is about.

if you go to publications then video clips, there are some nice things there. One good video against a rudgy takle style attack BJJ style.

http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/Personal24.html

Or

http://www.shenwu.com/

This guy is a competative internal stylist and also has some good videos.

hope this helps.

Cheers
Chris

[NuffSpeed]

Deep. Chris, could you explain some of the footwork and movement that you use. I know that "sport" fighters can have a hard time with a style they are not familiar with, but most of the folks here are mixed martial artists, have you sparred with fighters who are competent in many different ranges of combat and been able to get in on them easily with only the techniques of the arts you all are discussing? How long have you been practicing the Internal Arts?

[chris davis 200]

Nuff,

If you take a look at some of the videos in this site ou will see the king of movements that the internal arts use and what the training methods are about.

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/index.htm

Here - in the Ba gua Fighting section there is a video of unrehersed fighting with bagua

http://www.energyarts.com

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I started in external styles like Karate, MT, Judo, jujutsu, Ninjutsu. I then started at a traditional JuJUtsu school. This was very effective so i stayed there. at the same time i started Tai chi Chuan I have been doing this for about 6 year - very intensive training. I have done some Hsing I (five element fists - Hebei Style) and some Ba gua (Beijing style) but i am not that experienced in these styles.

I have used Tai chi and internal methods against - Judo, Taekwondo,JJ, a mixed fighter using JJ and MT, and many karateka etc from old clubs or that now train in TJJ with me.

I also worked on the door of a very rough club for about 2 years. There where many mnay mnay encounters (armed and unarmed). It was eventually shut down for violence!

ba gua style footwork is probably the most complicated - this involved spiraling and changing direction constantly. this is very very hard to describe but here goes an eg.

Lets say if someone throws a front kick with their right leg, as the leg comes up, you step to the out side of the kick with your right leg(deflect with your right hand keeping the other hand up to defend the midsection/face), the kick may hit you but will just deflect off because of the angle of your body. You then take another step to end up pretty much behing them (this happends fast) . This places you to the out side of their body, out of range of weapons on their left side (fists - kicks) and off their main fighting line, and opens targets like the kidneys, floating ribs, side / back of head, spine, hip, knees, tricep, throws and locks can also occur from here, etc etc.

I might upload an mpeg of me doing it so you can see what i mean.

Thnaks
Chris

[Kingston]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Lets say if someone throws a front kick with their right leg, as the leg comes up, you step to the out side of the kick with your right leg(deflect with your right hand keeping the other hand up to defend the midsection/face), the kick may hit you but will just deflect off because of the angle of your body. You then take another step to end up pretty much behing them (this happends fast) . This places you to the out side of their body, out of range of weapons on their left side (fists - kicks) and off their main fighting line, and opens targets like the kidneys, floating ribs, side / back of head, spine, hip, knees, tricep, throws and locks can also occur from here, etc etc.

ya we do that in systema.......each leg should be moving independantly from eachother.....try not to cross them.....its also kind of hard to explain. we dont always deflect with the hand.....its all improvised stuff, so it realy depends on how you feel at the time and what you can get away with

[NuffSpeed]

I watched the videos on the first site, it looked like alot of things I have learned before, some of the parries and trap movements looked like he comitted too much, but otherwise not bad. I was just curious, because I have been told of "combat Tai Chi" before, and I'm still curious as to why it's called "Internal".

[chris davis 200]

The term internal stems from the use of chi and the soft body conditioning that are used in these arts. They develop something called jing or power. Fa jing being the most commonly shown - Explosive power.

Chi has alot to do with intent, So with the extra bit of belief you have an advantage. also alot of the body movements are soft and yeilding - the effectiveness comes from body mechanics etc.

As your signature says

It only takes a single grain of sand to change the world.

It only takes a little extra to succeed.

Internal refers directly to chi. If you do external arts you develop your muscles and bones through training - you reley on these to achieve superiority in a fight. In internal arts you develop your chi (which comes from inside your body - hence - internal) - you then rely on jing or your expression of chi to gain superiority in a fight. This is the 'classical chinese' difference.

Whether it is a relevant difference to the modern fighter is for them to decide.

Cheers
chris