Who did Bruce lee actually fight?

[Domstarr]

First, Grimel,

Thank you for letting everyone know that in Hong Kong everyone didn't get arrested and go to jail when they got in a fight. The logic used by some of the people on this thread , that he couldn't hav egottn in fights because he would have been in jail or killed is assanine.

and Jules,

Why would you assume that if Bruce Lee got in fights thaat they were with random punks on the street? Don't you think his reputation as a fighter would have discouraged the "random punk" from attempting? From the way it's told by the PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM AND WITNESSED THE FIGHTS, ie: Inosanto, etc. they were very experienced martial atists who would challenge him. Just because a list of names, addresses and phone numbers for these people is not available is silly to say that, no it didn't happen. Like a few people already said, it doesn't make enough difference for us to all argue over it.

[Cadden]

Bruce Lee, in his early years training under Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung, went in quite a few challenge, Beimo style fights. He was quite successful too, winning most.

http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm

This is an account of Bruce Lee and his Sifu, Wong Shun Leung (who is unfairly discarded in the history of Bruce Lee). Wong gives a first hand account of Lee and his attitude and one or two Beimo fights. Bruce often fought with Wong Shun Leung (for the sake of furthering Kung Fu, not out of spite) and although Lee never won any of the fights (Wong was one of the greatest fighters of the 20th century) he was a very skilled individual.

However, Lee, after he became a movie star, was unable to test many of his techniques in a street situation as Wong Shun Leung was infamous for, because because of his movie fame people saw him as indestructable and rarely, if ever, challenged him. Also, Hong Kong Beimo fighting was outlawed and made illegal. It was a pity and retarded his growth in martial arts to some degree: he was unable to test and refine some of his techniques in real combat and thus he found it harder to advance.

Bruce Lee, as far as my knowledge goes, did very few Beimo style fights against other famous martial artists, bar Wong. And he never won against Wong so, hmm. But Wong always thought that had Bruce lived a normal length life, he would have exceeded him comfortably, unfortunately he died too young.

Bruce was obsessed, even until death, at becoming a better fighter than William Cheung, a fellow student of Yip Man, and whether or not he fought him to settle the score, so the speak, I am not sure.

Time and fame were Bruces enemies, and he was unable to challenge and accomplish many things. Unfortunate really.

[Domstarr]

Time and fame being some of his enemies is correct. The real question is, if he were alive today, after another 30 years of self improvement, what else would he have taught the world? He said back then that there is no one superior martial art. That is why he learned bits and pieces of dozens of arts to be able to use what would work in a given situation. Finally, after the Gracies started getting beatn at their own game, grapplers started to learn stand up fighting and stand up fighters started learning grappling. Everyone with a brain is cross training now.

[jules]

Why would you assume that if Bruce Lee got in fights thaat they were with random punks on the street? Don't you think his reputation as a fighter would have discouraged the "random punk" from attempting? From the way it's told by the PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM AND WITNESSED THE FIGHTS, ie: Inosanto, etc. they were very experienced martial atists who would challenge him.

Like who? Who did he fight? If they were "experienced martial artists" then they would have a name. Who did he fight?

Just because a list of names, addresses and phone numbers for these people is not available is silly to say that, no it didn't happen. Like a few people already said, it doesn't make enough difference for us to all argue over it.

Just names would be enough thank you. This is what I am talking about. You guys act if he was god and stating what BL fans admit themselves (i.e he has not entered tournamets and had not had many fights with other MAs) is the equivalence of actually attacking the guy. Look all you have provided for us is hearsay. Nothing more. Let's just state the facts. 1) ie was well respected as a martial artist and 2) He did not win any major tounraments or defeat anyone famous or established. For whatever reason they may be he didn't do it.

[Domstarr]

Let's just set the record straight so we can end this ridiculous thread once and for all.

I don't think Bruce Lee was God. I got on this thread and saw that someone else, not me, asked if Bruce Lee got in real fights. I gave input saying that ACCORDING TO EYE WITNESSES he did. These eyewitnesses being Dan Inosanto, one of the most respected men in the business. No one has explained yet why he would lie. Everyone ignores this. Next, Kareem, who worked with Bruce as we all know in Game of Death. I personally spoke with Kareem because we both keep horses at the same park and have ridden together and I asked him about Bruce Lee. What would be his motivation to lie? None of you commented on this either, you ignore it. The producer of Enter the Dragon in an interview FIFTEEN YEARS AFTER THE MOVIE CAME OUT. So he was not promoting the movie by "talking up" Bruce handling challenges on the street because the movie already made it's money long before the interview. James Coburn in interviews said the same thing. Why would he lie? Everyone ignores this stuff and comes up ridiculous answers like, "I want the names of who he fought" or "he would have been arrested if he got into fights"
I didn't say anything about him fighting famous martial artists, I didn't say anything about him winning tournaments. All I said was that he got in real, (meaning not just sparring) fights with fighters who challenged him, that's all. I based what I said from, as I said before, eyewitness's who are famous or reputable enough not to make it up.
Why don't we end this thread now, it's getting silly.

[RobertG]

Yes, we all know Bruce got in real fights. Lots of them. So many that his parents had to ship him off to the US so he wouldn't get arrested in Hong Kong. I am skeptical of the notion that he got in a lot of fights after his career began in the US. Your original post was something along the lines of according to this movie producer Bruce was challenged on the streets constantly. So far as I am aware there is one credible story about a Chinese instructor challenging him at his Chinatown school since he was teaching non-Chinese students. There have been rumors he may have been challenged on the set of movies by extras. This would have not been on US soil since American movie producers don't take to kindly to extras challenging their star actors. There are also rumors that fights in movies may have gotten a little more heated than just friendly sparring. Beyond that, there is scant evidence for any fights. If there were I wouldn't have such a hard time finding evidence for these because there would be Black Belt interviews and such corroborating your personal communication with Kareem. Kareem, btw, is a notorious misanthrope. By all accounts he doesn't talk to anyone if he can avoid it, so I'm rather skeptical he'd disclose information about a fight he witnessed Bruce in to a stranger. Which brings up another point....who in their right mind would go around picking a fight with Bruce Lee when he's got Kareem next to him? Not to mention Dan Inosanto was probably hanging around too. Not to mention a whole bunch of other badasses. No one is actually that stupid. Well maybe someone is...but, yeah, you'd have to be pretty damn retarded to fight Bruce Lee to begin with. You'd have to be infinitely more retarded when those guys have his back.

And what would James Coburn know about it anyway? The dude was paying $250 an hour for private lessons with Bruce at his Beverly Hills home. Its not like some guy is going to roll up to James Coburn's house, knock on the door, ask if Bruce is there, and then challenge Bruce. Please. Maybe Bruce told James that he was in fights (e.g. when he was a teenager), or maybe Bruce mentioned the fight in Chinatown, or maybe Bruce was just making crap up to impress some Hollywood type and part him from his wallet. Hell if I know. But I'm pretty certain Bruce never fought anyone in front of James Coburn.

Anyway, if you'd just be so kind as to give me some links to Inosanto interviews were he mentions these fights he witnessed, I'd be quite interested in reading them.

[Domstarr]

Robert,

It's easy to find Inosanto on the internet. You will see the quote somewhere that says "Every time I saw Bruce get in a serious fight he used the straight blast." Again, I'm not saying he won tournaments, I'm not saying he fought famous people, all I said was that he got in real fights where he was challenged. That's it. Please don't read anymore into it. No need for us to argue about it.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by Domstarr
ACCORDING TO EYE WITNESSES he did. These eyewitnesses being Dan Inosanto, one of the most respected men in the business. No one has explained yet why he would lie. Everyone ignores this.

Yeah, Inosanto is SO unbiased towards Lee...What could his possible motivation be in perpetuating the Lee mythos? Are you a friggin retard? INosanto is a great martial artist, but NOBODY in the world has more reason to perpetuate this mythology more than he.

[B}Next, Kareem, who worked with Bruce as we all know in Game of Death. I personally spoke with Kareem because we both keep horses at the same park and have ridden together and I asked him about Bruce Lee. What would be his motivation to lie? [/B]

Friend of Lee. Whether his friend is dead or not, he may be inclined to not want to sully his reputation by contradicting the mythology. As for just casually bringing up a conversation with the guy while you were riding horses....Whatever.

I based what I said from, as I said before, eyewitness's who are famous or reputable enough not to make it up.
[/B]

THe problem is, all of the famous eyewitnesses you "quote" are from the Lee/JKD camp. If I had ever seen a SCRAP of evidence from someone that did not have something to gain by perpetuation of the mythology I would be more inclined to believe the stories.

No one is saying that Lee was not a phenomenal athlete and martial artist, as well as being an interesting philosopher. THose do not automatically qualify someone as an expert fighter though.

I could care les if they gave the names of these phenom martial artists he fought, as long as someone outside of his fan club was he eyewitness. For that matter, even the tale of the fight on the set of ETD is fostered by those in the camp.

AS for fighting as a teenager, big deal. Who didn't get in a scrap or two, (or ten) as a kid? Even if he won those, it doesn;t qualify him as a great fighter.

I understand the importnace of mythology to any culture, including the MA culture, but quit trying to pass myth off as reality people.

RLTW

[Domstarr]

NWP Trainer,

It's pretty obvious that even if you guys saw real life videos of Bruce Lee in fights you would say that they were edited and doctored up. You'd want to see the camera that took the pictures and see sworn statements from the lab that developed the film, etc. etc. Give it a rest.

[NWPTrainer]

No I wouldn't. I can tell the difference between 1970s era home video and edited footage. I don;t know if the guy got in fights or not, and don;t care. As I said before, it all comes down to, are you willing to stake your life on the reputation of a myth? I'm not. If I'm gonna base my training on someone's system because f his supposed experience in combat, I want some form of reliable evidence that the guy was in some real brawls. NOt from his students and friends, but from independent sources. Luckily I don;t base my training on the other guy's rep. I'm not my instructors or Bruce Lee> I'm not a five-foot, whatever Asian-American. I'm a 6'1" 210 pound caucasian. My attributes are compeletly different Than Lee's were, so it's irrelevent. But don;t try to sell me something based on unsubstantiated rumor and myth.

RLTW

[Domstarr]

I won't try to sell you anything, you're too closed minded which will effect your martial arts training.

[NWPTrainer]

Where does this sudden fascination with calling me close-minded arive from? Simply because I choose not to buy into a certain psuedo-religious faith in someone's mythology?

I am actually ver open-minded in every area of my life, but I take a long, hard look at things before I incorporate them into my daily life. That rule stands, whether the new entry is SD reated, philosophic, a woman, or a friend. It's not close-mindedness or bigotry, it's a rational method of distilling what is useful to me from what is not, rather than blindly accepting things at face value. Gee, who was it that advocated that approach? His name seems to have "slipped" my mind momentarily...

Why bother resorting to name-calling and insults when someone does not agree with your beliefs? According to my Roget's Thesaurus, close-minded is a synonym for bigotry. According to my Webster's, bigotry is a hatred or prejudice against something or someone simply because theh have different beliefs than you do....SO, How am I being close-minded? I read his books, I studied JKD with a Vunak student many moons ago, for several years. I ever discounted Lee's contribution to the MA world. I did say that I refuse to accept something as TRUTH without empirical evidence. That doesn't mean I won;t look at a new idea and test it, just that I won't accept it as my own until I've proven it to myself.

RLTW

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Domstarr
Robert,

It's easy to find Inosanto on the internet. You will see the quote somewhere that says "Every time I saw Bruce get in a serious fight he used the straight blast." Again, I'm not saying he won tournaments, I'm not saying he fought famous people, all I said was that he got in real fights where he was challenged. That's it. Please don't read anymore into it. No need for us to argue about it.

I don't see a word about Bruce Lee fighting people on the Inosanto website.

Anyway, here's a link to a story about Bruce's fight with Wong Jack Man. LINK

Now this is Bruce's most famous fight--as in this is the fight that always gets talked about. Now if there are only 3 witnesses to his most famous fight, why are there apparently so many people who seem to know about all these less famous fights? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Notice also that Wong Man talked about this fight with Bruce. Are we to assume that none of the other people Bruce fought talked to people about it? Hence, NWPT's point--no one outside the Bruce camp is verifying this information. Why not? Because these fights never happened. If they did there would be written accounts about it. Some writer would have verified this information. All we know about is the Wong Man fight, and that isn't exactly something people in the Bruce camp want to brag about given the outcome. *throws some more fuel on the fire and runs off*

[Thai Bri]

So, you're taking this sentence "Every time I saw Bruce get in a serious fight he used the straight blast." and using that as evidence he had loads of real fights? I honestly think that is a bit weak.

Its 30 years ago. Perhaps Dan could enlighten us all and tell us a few more details about these fights. The evidence at the moment is weak to say the least, especially in the subject of martial arts, where people still believe in knockouts without touching and internal energy defeating bullets......

[RobertG]

Who needs evidence Thai Bri? I mean if people said so it must be true, right?