Who did Bruce lee actually fight?

[WaTEr]

And what kind of threat is that anyway. Insult my idol and i'll beat you up.

i don't idolize him i like him for his way of life. And his greta martial arts.

Post your address and see if you get any takers. The Gracies did it so I see no reason why you cant.

gracies? sorry i don't know who they are...

[RobertG]

You said Bruce could throw a punch in one thousandth of a second. That means 1/1000 of a second. That means 1000 punches per second. If we're talking 300/1000 of a second (more appropriately known as 3/10), that is 3.3 punches in one second. That actually doesn't seem to impressive. I think the average person could flick out a few jabs in a second. But you gave a number, now you are saying you don't know the number.

Weapons were not banned in Japan in the fifteenth century. Where did you get this information? The sword edicts of Toyotomi were not passed until 1586 (16th century, almost 17th), and full disarmament wasn't carried out until 1634 I believe when the Tokugawa Shogun finally disarmed all the Samurai. On the other hand, Okinawa was under a disarmament edict in 1477. But Okinawa and Japan were two different nations at the time. Japan conquered Okinawa in 1609 and maintained the weapon ban. However, samurai garrisoned in the territory were permiited to carry their weapons. Therefore we have unarmed Okinawans and an armed occupying force. This was prior to the age of suicide bombings, so karateka were not going to have much of a chance.

The fact is that all these stories for the origins of karate are just that--stories. Since Okinawa was a tributary state of China before Japanese occupation, they were highly influenced by Chinese culture. As such they had a beuracracy and great record keeping. The royal archives would likely have contained information on the origin of the practice of unarmed martial arts. Since the archives were destroyed in WWII, we are not privy to these historical documents anymore (as opposed to information on Bruce, which has not burned up in a fire....). So our stories about the origins of karate are based upon karateka's own hand-me-down stories. These are likely to be embellished--as stories often are--and/or subject to distortion through telling the tale over and over again. The first recorded instance of Chinese martial arts being displayed in Okinawa is in 1761. So its probably unlikely that karate dates back a thousand years and no one reported seeing it until 1761.
But, in lieu of accurate historical records, we'll never know. But I think my point is reasonable--it is unlikely that development of karate was in response to self-defense against samurai as is claimed by many. I'm also suspicious of the claim that they developed it to defend themselves from criminals. Criminals would carry weapons. Weapons beat empty hands. We're still stuck with the same dilemma. Now sure, if you're walking around with a kama, or some sai's, sure, you've got a fighting chance. But, then, we're back to my assertion that karate was originally a weapon art, and later developed into an open handed art when there was less fear of being mugged. By the way, you can find all this information in The Way of the Warrior by Reid and Croucher, which, despite allowing some spin by martial artists, is a pretty well researched and scholarly book. I'd hate to be accused of manufacturing facts out of thin air.

The Greeks didn't, so far as I am aware, have gladiators. So I don't think your characterization is accurate. The Greeks had an Olympics--people generally walked away alive from competitions.

As for science, what you refer to as science isn't. First off, no one ever believed the Earth is flat. Where do you get that nonsense? That has been disproved long ago. I mean the Greeks calculated the circumferance of the Earth over two thousand years ago. Kind of hard to calculate the circumference of a flat plane isn't it? Science has explained walking on fire and sticking pins through your skin. You don't read much skeptic literature do you? These tricks are old hat for science. Been explained long ago. As for gravity before Newton, etc. you've proven the entire point of the enterprise of science. Old ideas get discarded once they are demonstrated to not accurately describe the world. Oh, and it was the Church that held that the Sun revolves around the Earth. I'm pretty sure it was a scientist that proved otherwise. :rolleyes

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by WaTEr
Thai bri,


Thats the best you've got?
if im a sad little twat, then what are you? if i had to guess your some sad old women in a mans body. Cause the way your argue makes you sound slike a women. yes, back to my point find me and ill kick your a**. ohh and yes thats a challenge.

Don't worry. People like you hide so well theres no way I'd be able to find you.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by WaTEr
i live in Oshkosh, wiscousin iin the good ol' usa. off highway 60 near a place called stony beach. I live on hazel street 7263 its a blue house on the corner. So anybody who wants to come just hop on over. Ohh and please, if you must bring no guns or such. a knife is unfair but if you want to bring it by all means all cut you with your own knife. i don't fear death like so many of my competitors.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Thai Bri]

When Bruce said "Be like water my friend", I am sure he did not mean for someone to be like you.......

[WaTEr]

if you dishonor my teacher with disrespect. He would be happy for me to uphold his honor by taking on you. im sure that was'nt the most proper way to tell you. But, too tell you the truth i don't really care. First of all i did'nt send a challenge to anyone who does'nt like bruce. that'd be absurd, but i did send a challenge to all of you who disgrace his name with blasphemy. in conclusion, i respect bruce lee, and i think everyone in the martial arts community is due for a little respect to him. Ohh and yes evryone knows my address on page 8. so...

[jukado1]

sorry but had to get this in.

being like water, does not mean you should be all wet.

[WaTEr]

Why don't you try to tell me something i don't know.

[Pencode]

Like I said, I tried. There are a few errors in your time frames according to the Ministry of Education, Tokyo1937. Samurai were never disarmed until 1877. They were only told not to be farmers. However, you are correct about the 16th century.

"In order to bring the country under absolute control, Hideyoshi destroyed many castles that were built throughout the country during the era of civil wars. In 1588 he confiscated the weapons of all the farmers and religious institutions in the "Sword Hunt\. He forbade the samurai to be active as farmers and forced them to move into the castle towns. A clear distinction between the social classes should increase the government's control over the people. In addition, a land survey was started in 1583, and a census carried out in 1590. In the same year, Hideyoshi's large castle, the Osaka Castle, was completed.

Azuchi-Momoyama Period (1573 - 1603)

When Toyotomi Hideyoshi reunited Japan, he started introducing a rigid social caste system that was later completed by Tokugawa Ieyasu and his successors. Hideyoshi forced all samurai to decide between a life on the farm and a warrior life in castle towns. Furthermore, he forbade anyone but the samurai to arm themselves with a sword." (Ministry of Education, Tokyo 1937)

Next, reread my original post. It says"thousanths of a second" not 1/1000. One punch or finger jab...in thousanths of a second. His movement was so quick, film couldn't catch it.

I also never said the Greeks had gladiators, only the Romans. Yes, the Greeks had the Olympics. However, before that time was Pankratium and many men were killed, hence the barred illegal holds in wrestling.

According to the Ministry, the monks inhabited Japan in 540, were studying Chinese MA and that Bhuddism had absorbed Shinto. In the 10th century, shinobi, yawara and ju-jitsu were being taught not only to swordsman but to farmers and artisan.

I prefer to use Japanese sources for my info not non-Occidental. Here are some good resoures if you are interested.

History of the Japanese People(1915.Kikuchi),The Japanese Spirit(1905, Okakura); History of Japanese Religion(1930,M. Anesaki);Ministry of Education, Japan(1937)
And some American Books; Japanese Buddhism(C, Elliot,1935);History of Japan(J. Murdoch,1926)
They are a bit old and hard to find, but I like collecting old books.

As far as science is concerned, I still stick to what I said. If I remember correctly, it was Galileo who was laughed at for making the statement that the world was not flat. He was ahead of his time and it wasn't until almost three centuries later that his theories were accepted. Apparently, you don't know your history. When men first learned to sail they believed they would fall off the egde of the earth if they sailed too far. Also, forward me the sources of the info that explain away fire walking and such,because every documentar and book I have seen or read cannot explain it.Later.

P.S. This is the last from me on this subject...Ibelieve we both have gotten way far off the topic of dicussion

[Domstarr]

Pencode & Water,

Well done, my friends. I stayed out of this for awhile because I got tired of trying to convince ignorant guys who were obviously brainwashed by whoever they are learning martial arts from. who don't want to acknowledge Bruce's talents. Even the master that I earned my two black belts from in Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do did not want to admit that Bruce Lee was a better fighter than him, I was smart enough to ignore that because it was his ego problem. I watched you make your points and watched these guys give there usual answers. They don't read, they don't do research, they need everything explained to them and then when it is, they contradict themselves. They want names and then when you give them names they give stupid reasons why these names aren't valid. It is not us who are brainwashed into thinking Bruce was a "God", it is them who are brainwashed by whoever they are learning from who have ego problems and don't want to give Bruce the credit he deserves for making martial arts what they are today.
One of them said, "Name someone who Bruce Lee made into a world class fighter." (or something very close to that) Well, EVERYONE who we've seen in the Ultimate Fighting Championships learned from Bruce Lee. They learned that there is no one superior martial art. They had to learn how to fight from the four ranges and use a little bit of different arts at the time in a fight that that particular art is applicable. This is why the Gracies started losing because all they knew was ground fighting and other martial artists were incorporating ground fighting into their game which included kicking and punching. These guys say the Gracies proved their "stuff" in the ring, but all they did was set up the UFC so that grapplers had the advantage to make themselves look good. This is common knowledge. All the holds that were barred in there supposed no holds barred fighting were to their advantage, where a kicker would had broken their leg in half at the knee before they could do a take down. They would have had there throats crushed or their eyes jabbed out by someone like Bruce, before they could take him down. The rules they made up were self serving. You guys are hero worshipping the wrong people.
One of these guys who was putting down Bruce said that he was learning JKD. I challenge whoever he is learning from if he doesn't respect Bruce. Bruce and Dan Inosanto developed JKD together. Paul Vunak learned it directly from Dan and I learned it directly from Paul. Paul and Dan say that they have taught JKD all over the world and when they go back to a school, the guys are back to kick boxing and still calling it JKD. There are very few people out ther who teach REAL JKD. The only thing Robert or Jules said that was correct, was that Bruce would be pretty upset if he saw what people were doing to his art. Whether it was Robert or Jules or Thai Bri who said they were studying JKD, they must be learning the wrong thing, or whoever they were learning it from would have the respect for the guy who developed what they are supposedly teaching.
I've studied REAL JKD and I see how real life effective it is. Not for the cage with the soft mats, but for the cement with NO HOLDS BARRED.
Pencode, like you, this is the last I have to say on the subject. Ignorance bothers me. Where in California are you?

[jules]

I stayed out of this for awhile because I got tired of trying to convince ignorant guys who were obviously brainwashed by whoever they are learning martial arts from.

Bruce Lee has never came up in a converstion between me and my trainer. If anything it is you who are assuming things about me.

They don't read, they don't do research, they need everything explained to them....

Excuse me but are you an educated man? Because if you are you would know what "Burden of Proof" means.

Well, EVERYONE who we've seen in the Ultimate Fighting Championships learned from Bruce Lee. They learned that there is no one superior martial art. They had to learn how to fight from the four ranges and use a little bit of different arts at the time in a fight that that particular art is applicable.

That is laughable do you mean to say that Bruce Lee was the first man in history to use MMA? Or the first one to make it popluar in mainstream? There is a big difference between the two. MMA has been around alot longer than Bruce Lee.

They would have had there throats crushed or their eyes jabbed out by someone like Bruce, before they could take him down.

I did not know that there were "rules" in the Gettos of Rio.

I've studied REAL JKD and I see how real life effective it is. Not for the cage with the soft mats, but for the cement with NO HOLDS BARRED.

and what is the clostest thing to NHB? MMA matches. seesh

[Domstarr]

Jules,

O.K. I wasn't going to respond to this crap anymore, but I couldn't resist just this once 'cause you left yourself so wide open. (Probably like you do in real fighting)
I'll just give you the same stupid questions you guys gave us.
1) Name one person that a Gracie fought in the streets of Rio and beat? (You asked us that about Bruce Lee)
2) Give us the names, pal.
3) Give me the names of the witnesses who saw these street fights in Rio? Come on. (You asked us that also about Bruce Lee)
4) Even if you give us names, how do we know they are not just saying it because they are from the Gracie "camp" and want to impress the world? (need I repeat it?)
5) How come none of the Gracies were killed if they got in real street fights? Guys in Rio would come uo behind them and stab them in the back or through the neck if they really beat anyone up in the street. That means these fights obviously never happened according to your own logic.
6) We all know that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is only good fighting one guy, cause the second guy would be kicking your head in while you're getting his buddy in a submission hold. If the Gracie's got in real fights in Rio, why didn't they get jumped two at a time and killed? These Gracie fight stories are crap. Prove they're true. The burden is on you, remember.
7) You don't believe all the crap you read in magazines or see on T.V. do you? That stuff is done just to make them look good. (or at least that's what you said about Bruce Lee)
8) Tell me how many times they've been in the hospital from street fighting? We're waiting.
9) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a sport, not a street fighting art. Prove who the Gracies beat in a real street fight, not a tournament that they set up and made the rules for. Give us names and documentation.
These are all the same stupid things you asked us to prove about Bruce Lee, now it's your turn.






7)

[jules]

These are all the same stupid things you asked us to prove about Bruce Lee, now it's your turn.

Really so who did Bruce Lee beat in a tournament? Wow answering questions with questions. Great tatic if you are cornered and want to change the subject.

I asked for Documented proof. It is clear that you have no intention of actually providing proof. Give us articles, links, if it was on video give us the name of the interview on tape. What have you given us? Nothing. The burden of proof? It's on you not me. This fact would be clear to a person with even a junior high education.

[Pencode]

Thanx Dommstar for the reply.

What I have learned over the years is that people only will believe what they believe to be true. Even when presented with information the fact still remains ignorance must really be bliss.

I stay in San Berdo, not to far from Mr. Tim Tackett. Hopefully I will get the chance to visit him before either one of us passes.

[jules]

What I have learned over the years is that people only will believe what they believe to be true. Even when presented with information the fact still remains ignorance must really be bliss.

What information have you given me? Did you list books? NO Have you listed urls? NO. Did you give names of documenteries? NO. So i am wondering what so called proof you have given me.