why are people always knocking TKD?

[Spookey]

H2h

Hand 2 Hand,

Which MA's do you practice? and what arts/styles do you find to be "satisfactory" or "not watered down"?

I have studied combatives from many angles, and would love to learn your experience as well as opinions as far as what is effective and what is USELESS!

As relates to martial arts (one portion of combatives) I use the techniques of both TKD and Kodokan on a regular basis during the coarse of my work. I must utilize the tactics of arrest and control , in accordance with the use of force continuem, yet may result to hard strikes in the mitst of total havoc!
For quite some time, I have effectively utilized the techniques of my art to defend the well being of others as well as myself!

I look forward to hearing frmo you!

Spookey!

[Damian Mavis]

Handtohand, how are my techniques from TKD useless? Besides knocking out several opponents in TKD over the years and disabling many others I have knocked out opponents in MUAY THAI using TKD techniques so how are they useless? Was I suppose to kill them in one shot or the technique was useless? I simpy do not understand what you are talking about.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[IPON]

Taekwon-Do as taught by the Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan through the early 1970's (and by die hard ITF/GTF/UTF practitioners even today) has as many hand techniques as does foot techniques, yes it teaches kicks, has release techniques, joint locks and control techniques, throws and takedowns, also teaches defensive techniques against armed opponents (various weapons)

Hi Spookey this is what I am familiar with as well. I did not study TKD but I remember when I was young my uncle studying and other older cousins that these techniques were in the system, but for some reason greatly de-emphasized in current teachings. I don't know enough of TKD to speculate I assume that Damian listed the basic problems

[IPON]

You must beat the shit out of them at all costs. Arm bars and the like are okay but you typically if you have the opurtunity to grapple you want to get them into a spot that you can pummel them. This is just some general advice.

H2H you do realize that if you are in aposition or set up a standing arm seizing or hyperextending the elbow will end the fight. Then there is no reason to trade punches. Listen there are a variety of ways of fighting, BJJ goes to the ground, juoka throws, TKD kicks, MT kicks/elbows, boxing strikes. There is not an issue of wrong there may only be an issue practicality. and no one method is gauranteed to work. I not recommend kick ing above the waist/ab but for me that would not be a good idea I have seen many HKD/TSD/and TKD that are lightening fast with power that will put you (or me) on your ass with kicks. The problem to me is not the teaching and understanding of the style vs the style itself. What you learned as a child was just that as a child.

No Flame I am just saying be fair - my 2 cents

[IPON]

Yes destroying limbs can be very usefull but dont expect destroying one limb to end the fight

Dude I no for certain you have never been in any kind of fight scenerio and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think a hyperextended/"broken arm will not end a fight. Now not fighting is a good thing but you should not be so difinative if you don't have some experience. I have been in a lot of fights and seen a hell of a lot more. I have an opion of TKD as a style becuase of what I saw from my uncle but today yes it is about teh Mcdojo, but that doesn't make the style flawed. Just as Tai chi is not flawed only becuase one aspect is taught.

I will have to find it (I am sure its on judo info) but I remeber an article which talked about boxing and jujitsu. It wa a challange match by by an english boxer cira early 1900's. the boxer beat to jujitsu stylist s and the third I believe he was beating and then the jujisu stylist got and arm bar, broke his arm and the boxer passed out from the pain. Now that is obviously not everyone, but a broken arm is a broken arm whether you are high or not. Now if you want to argue how easy is it to get these locks and breaks that one thing. But for you to say that can't end a fight Now if the fight continues past this point of course you keep going but your opponent is comprimised.

I never said ground fighting, taking someone to the ground and fighting on the ground are completly separate. I can take somone to the ground without committing to the ground.

The point of my response was that every style has its way of dealing with a situation fighting did not begin with MMA. So if a per throws a punch a TKD stylist does this, a judoka does that etc that is al I am saying

[Spookey]

H2h

Dear Sir,

I am not a cop!...I do security on a proffesional level (not a rent a cop)...I am currently providing oversight and assistance for a friends entertainment facility. Many nights I have been involved in fights between gang members consisting of two groups of multiple opponents. I have actively been involved at times where multiple fights have erupted with upwards of 100 combatants. This is a major problem when there are less than 15 people to provide "backup"! And with that many people fighting and another 600-700 people running around in a panic, cuffing someone on the ground is a death wish! You hit, and hard...and my TKD training(and more so God!) have provided me the ability to make my way through!

[IPON]

I was responding to when you said that hyperextending the elbow would end the fight, and what i was saying is that if you had a determined attacker it wouldnt.

Maybe you are not completly understanding, if you get a standing arm bar, break the arm YES that with end 98% or better of the fights. What does determinationhave to do with anything. Yes if they are hi they are not afected by the pain (possible) but they still have no use of the limb...period. Again, if for some reason that did not stop ypou continue. I am not limited in any range

"Arm bars and the like are okay but you typically if you have the opurtunity to grapple you want to get them into a spot that you can pummel them."

I am saying that is definately a matter of opinion becuase you can end the fight with the arm bar. You don't to agree, but I do want you to understand what I am saying if you don't agree

[Spookey]

H2h

Hand 2 Hand,

I own the book as well as the E&E manual and the many others! Also, I do use an ASP (extendable baton), as well as OC gas, firearms, ect.
You have another forum on which you discuss the free use (mis use) of the term COMBATIVES! I study COMBATIVES (h2h, firearms, arrest and control, weapons of opportunity, threat assessment, use of force continuem, prevention, and escape)!
It is in leiu of this training and line of work that I again state that traditional TKD (when taught and learned correctly) can be very useful in physical confrontations!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Damian Mavis]

Handtohand, stop reading so many damn books and go train, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. By that I mean actual experience to back up your opinions instead of repeating propaganda you heard or read somewere else. At the very least stop telling us all what you THINK it's like to fight and use certain techniques when we are actually using them and you are not.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[TylerDurden]

TKD is now, maybe it wasn't always but it is now, fluff. High fancy kicks, point sparring, no punching to the face, black belt in a year etc etc. If 95% of the schools teach it that way, then that's what it is. I didn't do martial arts 40 years ago, so I have never seen how TKD guys trained back then, but I have seen it now. And for them to do well in any kind of fight they end up having to cross train and learn all the skills they are missing. That's why people from so many other arts poke fun at TKD.

Maybe the folks here are in that 5% of schools that has not gone completely cash driven and turned self defense into a dance routine. I cannot say one way or another never having seen them fight. Just going on what I have seen in the few hundred TKD guys I have met over time, and the schools I have been too.

[Spookey]

Cash Driven!

Sir,

I respect your thoughts and it appears that you respect mine and Damian's opinions and experience respectively!
Yes, there are many crap schools, but if you search you can find good quality dojangs likewise!
As relates to cash motivation, my instruction is my father, he was certified directly through the OhDoKwan, and of course my training is free!
Furthermore, he teaches family and friends for free. We make contributions of training equipment and what not, but the training is free.

Damian,

You reinterated my point exactly...we know from first hand use !

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[IPON]

TKD is now, maybe it wasn't always but it is now, fluff. High fancy kicks, point sparring, no punching to the face, black belt in a year etc etc.

I agree completely, I am just saying is it a flawed style or bastardized becuase of organizations, poor teaching and greed. I don't study TKD though I did learn from my uncle and what I saw was much differnt than what is currently available. Now it is crap, but hey that what ppl want, sad but true

[Spookey]

Adding Gas to the Flame...

Dear posters,

Sad but true...the image of TKD has been overrun by the olympic style (sport) TKD. Also, there are many TKD-McDojos (as with all other TMA's). General Choi spoke of bastardized TKD and he obviously understood the politics envolved because bastardized TKD is now the RULE instead of the EXEPTION!
However, if more people would research the politics and then view the organizations they would see that traditional TKD is alive and fighting! For the first time in history the ITF is being led by Gen. Choi's son, Master Choi Jung Hwa, back to it's Korean roots! Even in the midst of all the bastardization of TKD and the politics of the Koreas' there is now a need for that which is true to return to that from which it came!
Now maybe TKD will return to what it once was (and still is if you search)!
I request that those of you not familiar with traditional (TRUE) TKD not assist in the spread of this bastardized ideology by serving as a commercial against TKD!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[bvermillion]

H2H why in the world do you place some much faith in Army Hand To Hand Combatives. If you ask someone associated with the Army there hand to hand training is severely lacking. They learn the basics and that is it. But this isn't a problem for the military because they only use the techniques if there weapons have failed them. If you are wanting to learn martial arts Army Hand to Hand is not the way to go. They don't even think so. There training is very sparce with a lot of soldiers never even recieving hand to hand training. The main reason they even train h2h combatives is to instill a warrior mentality within the soldier. If you dont believe this there is an article in the January or February issue of Blackbelt magazine. These are not my thoughts that is what the guy in charge of Army Combatives has to say about it. By the way if you are interested in Military Martial Arts I have heard the Marines have a good program. I think it is MCMAP or something like that. Dont ask me what it stands for.

[PaiLumUmar]

I studied at USA TKD center, Colorado Springs CO. Learned how to kick hard as hell. I have always had fast legs. It is something I have added to my arsenal in Chinese MA.
But I had to work on how it felt to fight when someone will give you know room to breath and knows what ther are doing. Close range, clinch, groundfighting.

Do a lot of bag training and spar full contact to the ground. Your TKD will be just fine.