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  • #61
    Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
    I may lose a battle but survival is certain.

    try to open up your mind to ideas people are trying to expose you too.
    Avoid when you can avoid,
    Fight when you must fight
    Run when you must run.
    Defend when you must defend.

    Remember, no body can win them all, but you can survive them.
    Beautiful. You should quote that and put it in the section "Quotes for Martial Artists to Live By"

    Comment


    • #62
      Wow you're really hung up on the words "win" and "lose" How about the word defeat?

      While you worry about whether you are winning or not, some of us are worried about inflicting more damage and misery upon our attacker.
      I don't worry about that, inflicting damage goes hand in hand with winning or losing. If I'm taking more damage than I'm giving then I'm losing. When you get down to it I really don't think of winning or inflicting damage but rather I try to be in the moment. A fight can go from cold to hot to warm to hot again. In the middle of the fight my opponent may give up, so do I still worry about inflicting damage and missery upon him or just go for control?

      I may lose a battle but survival is certain.
      ...
      Remember, no body can win them all, but you can survive them.
      Uh, OK. Maybe on the Playstation but have it your way. I don't believe you can predict survival with any certainty.

      While situations arise in life where force may be required, looking at it from the point of view of competition is foolish.
      Why? You don't compete for jobs, entry into schools, women, food? Competition is a part of life and not only in the ring.

      You're mistaking costs with outcomes but...
      So you kill someone and they paralyze you, did you win?
      Technically yes.
      If you defend yourself against a drunk and paralyze him and go to jail did you win?
      Yes. You're saying that I don't defend myself? What if the drunk is trying to kill me? What if I do nothing and the drunk runs over a family crossing the street? What if...
      If you intimidate someone enough that they feel they must elimiate you by coming back armed and eliminating you and your familiy did you win?
      Wow are you paranoid.

      I really don't get where you're coming from. You seem to have predetermined outcomes if you do something. It's very good to know the costs of something but you can't let it paralyze you either.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by brokenelbow
        Wow you're really hung up on the words "win" and "lose" How about the word defeat?
        Defeat is de mos' impo'tant thing in winnin'!

        Defeat dat runs de fassests and gits home to a hot meal an' a wa'm bed is defeat o de winneh!

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by osopardo
          Defeat is de mos' impo'tant thing in winnin'!

          Defeat dat runs de fassests and gits home to a hot meal an' a wa'm bed is defeat o de winneh!
          How can da defeat? i mean really when de lunch bell goes off how do dey know??

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Thai Bri
            Are you drunk?
            I don't drink alcohol!, But I understand what you mean, are you going to tell me that every win is flawless? Every move perfect? That even in a win something can't be learned? I am not talking some armchair philosophy, but if you can't understand that I think you are drunk my friend, drunk with myopia.

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            • #66
              Yes. You're saying that I don't defend myself? What if the drunk is trying to kill me? What if I do nothing and the drunk runs over a family crossing the street? What if...
              What if that drunk comes back and sues you for everything you have. Win or lose. . . .???

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
                of course you can learn from a win, but we aren't talking about a win in this thread.

                Fair enough. I just wanted to make a point about learning in the other direction...as you state a "win" is very subjective survival is more concrete. I can get away and the other person is unable or unwilling to follow..that is a win, that is survival. We can't base it on the future, this person could do this or that, we would have endless possibilities.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Yes. You're saying that I don't defend myself? What if the drunk is trying to kill me? What if I do nothing and the drunk runs over a family crossing the street? What if...

                  Medic wrote...
                  What if that drunk comes back and sues you for everything you have. Win or lose. . . .???
                  Win, I'm alive (aka survived) with a very good lawyer. If said drunk was trying to kill me I'd hope it would be his family coming to sue me. So what's more important at the moment, defending yourself from serious harm or worrying what might happen in the future?

                  Really, do you guys live in bubbles?

                  Tom, osopardo, make it funnier by putting on some blackface and singing Camptown Races.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Funny I was wondering the same thing about you.

                    there are dangerousk, bad people in this world, who unless you kill you haven't "won" you have only prolonged the battle. There is always tomorrow. If you fight someone and put them in the hospital great you won a battle and survived the encounter. But for some out there it's not over yet, and it won't be over until they kill you.

                    Also, surviving a fight is a much better legal position than winning. After an altercation if you tell the police that you beat him, or that you won, you may regret it if you end up in court and your words are brought back to you.

                    we learn from experience and from the experience of others
                    self defense has nothing to do with winning, and everything to do with survival.
                    In self defense the idea is to protect yourself and get away.
                    To win rules out the idea of retreat,
                    Winning is ego, survival is instinctual.

                    There should be no ego in combat when your life is on the line. Only single mindedness of purpose that you are going to go home at the end of the encounter and continue your life.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by IPON
                      Fair enough. I just wanted to make a point about learning in the other direction...as you state a "win" is very subjective survival is more concrete. I can get away and the other person is unable or unwilling to follow..that is a win, that is survival. We can't base it on the future, this person could do this or that, we would have endless possibilities.
                      and that's reality. . . .

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by brokenelbow
                        Win, I'm alive (aka survived) with a very good lawyer. If said drunk was trying to kill me I'd hope it would be his family coming to sue me. So what's more important at the moment, defending yourself from serious harm or worrying what might happen in the future?

                        Really, do you guys live in bubbles?

                        Tom, osopardo, make it funnier by putting on some blackface and singing Camptown Races.

                        *mental note, stay away from brokenelbow if you had too much to drink. . . . LOL*

                        but on a serious note, I see where you are coming from and if it comes down to it anyone who attacks me is getting a serious beat down. But, said beat down will only happen if there is a good reason. My days of beating up drunks are over. . . .

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Don't worry medic I'm not the pyscho X thinks I am, I've spent enough time learning non-lethal control techniques, so drink up.

                          there are dangerousk, bad people in this world, who unless you kill you haven't "won" you have only prolonged the battle.
                          Exactly right, so what do you do if they start with you and you have no chance to avoid them? Laugh that if they kill you that they may go to jail?

                          we learn from experience and from the experience of others
                          self defense has nothing to do with winning, and everything to do with survival.
                          In self defense the idea is to protect yourself and get away.
                          To win rules out the idea of retreat,
                          Winning is ego, survival is instinctual.
                          Crack open a dictionary X. Winning is not about ego but an outcome, so stop trying to place a negative meaning on the word. You're not wrong about self defense but you're thinking inside of a box. Awhile back I had an incident where it went from white to orange in 5 seconds and was heading into the red with a bullet. I succesfully ended that one without having to use verbal or physical violence, but he could tell that if he went too far he was going to be hurt. He was loud, he barked, he got the last word, but he backed down. So I'm wondering. what would you have done?

                          Only single mindedness of purpose that you are going to go home at the end of the encounter and continue your life.
                          That's thinking way too far down the line for me if I'm in a bad situation. I'll think about going home when I have to reached the end of the encounter. Watch the guys in your class and try to see who is "there" and who is thinking about what's on TV after class. Which would you rather have to really fight?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            The time I was faced with a loud drunk with a gun, I verbally deescalated the situation and it was resolved without need for a physical confrontation. There were only two choice, in that case, It de-escalated and we both walked away or he died right there. Due to circumstances and positioning I would have broken his neck.

                            I think you are somewhat misunderstand still what I'm saying.

                            The president of fairtex was a great fighter, he won a lot in the ring, he died on the street. Because he chased down some people who stole his car. It was really a no win situation for him when he started to chase them. He apparently could not see that. Calling the police would have been "a win" Winning has a connotation.

                            the idea of winning on the street gets people hurt or killed. You punch someone and they start to back off, so you charge at them going for that "win" and they pull their knife and stick it in you.

                            If it comes down to my life on the line and I can't get away, you better bet i'm going to kill you, or die trying. That is single mindedness of purpose. At that point I'm not worried about whether i'm safe, or injured or taking damage, only about killing my attacker.

                            It's not a game. if you take it in the context of winning, then you are putting it into the terms of a game. So if you lose what do you want? a rematch? If you win do you let the other guy have a rematch? at what point is it a win? When they back down? many people have been killed by the person who backed down first but came back with a weapon.

                            This is common sense,

                            avoid,
                            retreat
                            defend
                            disable
                            destroy

                            If it gets to a physical confrontation most of the time you have already made several mistakes.

                            There will be times were you will need to fight, where you will not be able to escape, where you must protect others, but they are few and far between. Most can and should be avoided, because you simply do not know who is going to take it to the next level.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
                              The time I was faced with a loud drunk with a gun, I verbally deescalated the situation and it was resolved without need for a physical confrontation. There were only two choice, in that case, It de-escalated and we both walked away or he died right there. Due to circumstances and positioning I would have broken his neck.
                              How? The whiplash caused by him watching your gizzards fly past?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                it was close proximity and we were at uneven levels. I was about 1 foot higher than he was, so a head torque and drop would have been the best bet, if it failed it probably would have ended up in something like a rear naked choke.

                                This actually wasn't as scary as the guy with the knife

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