Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
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I love TKD but...
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Wow you're really hung up on the words "win" and "lose" How about the word defeat?
While you worry about whether you are winning or not, some of us are worried about inflicting more damage and misery upon our attacker.
I may lose a battle but survival is certain.
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Remember, no body can win them all, but you can survive them.
While situations arise in life where force may be required, looking at it from the point of view of competition is foolish.
You're mistaking costs with outcomes but...
So you kill someone and they paralyze you, did you win?
If you defend yourself against a drunk and paralyze him and go to jail did you win?
If you intimidate someone enough that they feel they must elimiate you by coming back armed and eliminating you and your familiy did you win?
I really don't get where you're coming from. You seem to have predetermined outcomes if you do something. It's very good to know the costs of something but you can't let it paralyze you either.
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Originally posted by brokenelbowWow you're really hung up on the words "win" and "lose" How about the word defeat?
Defeat dat runs de fassests and gits home to a hot meal an' a wa'm bed is defeat o de winneh!
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Originally posted by osopardoDefeat is de mos' impo'tant thing in winnin'!
Defeat dat runs de fassests and gits home to a hot meal an' a wa'm bed is defeat o de winneh!
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Originally posted by Thai BriAre you drunk?
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Yes. You're saying that I don't defend myself? What if the drunk is trying to kill me? What if I do nothing and the drunk runs over a family crossing the street? What if...
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Originally posted by eXcessiveForceof course you can learn from a win, but we aren't talking about a win in this thread.
Fair enough. I just wanted to make a point about learning in the other direction...as you state a "win" is very subjective survival is more concrete. I can get away and the other person is unable or unwilling to follow..that is a win, that is survival. We can't base it on the future, this person could do this or that, we would have endless possibilities.
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Yes. You're saying that I don't defend myself? What if the drunk is trying to kill me? What if I do nothing and the drunk runs over a family crossing the street? What if...
Medic wrote...
What if that drunk comes back and sues you for everything you have. Win or lose. . . .???
Really, do you guys live in bubbles?
Tom, osopardo, make it funnier by putting on some blackface and singing Camptown Races.
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Funny I was wondering the same thing about you.
there are dangerousk, bad people in this world, who unless you kill you haven't "won" you have only prolonged the battle. There is always tomorrow. If you fight someone and put them in the hospital great you won a battle and survived the encounter. But for some out there it's not over yet, and it won't be over until they kill you.
Also, surviving a fight is a much better legal position than winning. After an altercation if you tell the police that you beat him, or that you won, you may regret it if you end up in court and your words are brought back to you.
we learn from experience and from the experience of others
self defense has nothing to do with winning, and everything to do with survival.
In self defense the idea is to protect yourself and get away.
To win rules out the idea of retreat,
Winning is ego, survival is instinctual.
There should be no ego in combat when your life is on the line. Only single mindedness of purpose that you are going to go home at the end of the encounter and continue your life.
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Originally posted by IPONFair enough. I just wanted to make a point about learning in the other direction...as you state a "win" is very subjective survival is more concrete. I can get away and the other person is unable or unwilling to follow..that is a win, that is survival. We can't base it on the future, this person could do this or that, we would have endless possibilities.
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Originally posted by brokenelbowWin, I'm alive (aka survived) with a very good lawyer. If said drunk was trying to kill me I'd hope it would be his family coming to sue me. So what's more important at the moment, defending yourself from serious harm or worrying what might happen in the future?
Really, do you guys live in bubbles?
Tom, osopardo, make it funnier by putting on some blackface and singing Camptown Races.
*mental note, stay away from brokenelbow if you had too much to drink. . . . LOL*
but on a serious note, I see where you are coming from and if it comes down to it anyone who attacks me is getting a serious beat down. But, said beat down will only happen if there is a good reason. My days of beating up drunks are over. . . .
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Don't worry medic I'm not the pyscho X thinks I am, I've spent enough time learning non-lethal control techniques, so drink up.
there are dangerousk, bad people in this world, who unless you kill you haven't "won" you have only prolonged the battle.
we learn from experience and from the experience of others
self defense has nothing to do with winning, and everything to do with survival.
In self defense the idea is to protect yourself and get away.
To win rules out the idea of retreat,
Winning is ego, survival is instinctual.
Only single mindedness of purpose that you are going to go home at the end of the encounter and continue your life.
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The time I was faced with a loud drunk with a gun, I verbally deescalated the situation and it was resolved without need for a physical confrontation. There were only two choice, in that case, It de-escalated and we both walked away or he died right there. Due to circumstances and positioning I would have broken his neck.
I think you are somewhat misunderstand still what I'm saying.
The president of fairtex was a great fighter, he won a lot in the ring, he died on the street. Because he chased down some people who stole his car. It was really a no win situation for him when he started to chase them. He apparently could not see that. Calling the police would have been "a win" Winning has a connotation.
the idea of winning on the street gets people hurt or killed. You punch someone and they start to back off, so you charge at them going for that "win" and they pull their knife and stick it in you.
If it comes down to my life on the line and I can't get away, you better bet i'm going to kill you, or die trying. That is single mindedness of purpose. At that point I'm not worried about whether i'm safe, or injured or taking damage, only about killing my attacker.
It's not a game. if you take it in the context of winning, then you are putting it into the terms of a game. So if you lose what do you want? a rematch? If you win do you let the other guy have a rematch? at what point is it a win? When they back down? many people have been killed by the person who backed down first but came back with a weapon.
This is common sense,
avoid,
retreat
defend
disable
destroy
If it gets to a physical confrontation most of the time you have already made several mistakes.
There will be times were you will need to fight, where you will not be able to escape, where you must protect others, but they are few and far between. Most can and should be avoided, because you simply do not know who is going to take it to the next level.
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Originally posted by eXcessiveForceThe time I was faced with a loud drunk with a gun, I verbally deescalated the situation and it was resolved without need for a physical confrontation. There were only two choice, in that case, It de-escalated and we both walked away or he died right there. Due to circumstances and positioning I would have broken his neck.
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