I love TKD but...

[Thai Bri]

Do you write dime novels?

[Thai Bri]

Cheap ones.....?

[brokenelbow]

X, was he facing you? I'm not understanding the setup.

the idea of winning on the street gets people hurt or killed. You punch someone and they start to back off, so you charge at them going for that "win" and they pull their knife and stick it in you.

Once again you're predetermining what I'd do and outcomes. What is your fixation with the word "win".

If it comes down to my life on the line and I can't get away, you better bet i'm going to kill you, or die trying. That is single mindedness of purpose. At that point I'm not worried about whether i'm safe, or injured or taking damage, only about killing my attacker.

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from X, but this flies in the face of what you were saying before. Now you're jumping over from avoidance to trying to kill instead of survival. Somehow you've gone from being to the left of me to now being to the right.

[osopardo]

How can da defeat? i mean really when de lunch bell goes off how do dey know??

Oh, defeat, dey know! When yo eyes sees a big man wi' a mean look in his eye an' he stadt to talk loud 'bout how you ain't nothin' an' he gonna whup yo butt an' yo mind asks "What fo'? What we gots to gain heah by showin' dis jive ass he ain't gut whut it takes?" Den defeat jus' goes an t'ain't nobody gots to tell 'em "Go!" dey jus' go; 'cause defeat, dey jus' know!



An' brokenelbow, why you talkin' 'bout blackface fo? I'se jus' typin' the way us southe'n gennulmans nomally sound. Got nothin' to du wi' any kinda blackface or nothin'.

A'sides, 'Mericun Civil Liberties Yoonyon done put the kebosh on that sorta thang long ago! If we could jus' have that same law cover mimes and geishas, we'd be all set!

[eXcessiveForce]

I don't know how to make things clearer for you Broken.


This thread started off with the concept of losing a fight and learning from it. (although again I don't like the terms winning and losing for a fight)

You did not seem to understand that concept of learning from a loss or failure.


In high school people talk about winning and losing fights. People who have been attacked in adult life do not usually say they won or lost, It is usually more, I was hurt, or I escaped, or I got lucky. Very rarely do you hear someone say I won.

I think you are missing the words i'm using.

There is nothing wrong with competition, or winning, but it is not the right context for self defense. A true win would be achieveing a positive resolution to an outcome with no repercussions. But this does not usually happen in real life. Beat the tar out of someone, even in self defense and you are going to end up in court, or in jail.

If you die, then you lose but that is really the only time I personally would accept that term. Everything else is pretty much "a win" If I go home tonight I win because i'm still alive. These are more concrete.

Define what winning is as it pertains to a self defense situation. Some say if you walk away you win, some say if you kill the other person you win, some people live in the grey area in between.

Survival is the point of self defense, If you are looking at winning you are not concentrating on survival. Winning means getting the better of someone but that can be very hard to determine.

Let me put it this way, I win every fight I do not get into and have no chance of losing.
Every time I fight there is a chance of losing or taking damage" therefore there is a much high chance of losing in actual confrontations than in avoidance. So it is much better to avoid when possible.

Now if I must fight, that means avoidance has failed, obviously it is very serious. I need to do as much as I can to ensure escape (this would be winning) but most people would not see escape as "winning" They would want to stand toe to toe and slug it out to determine a winner. That is foolish.

Winning and losing are too abstract, many people have different views of what these things are.

If we were to fight and you came in with the idea that Winning is to beat me up, and losing is to be beaten up. And I came in with the Idea that winning is Your death and losing is my death. You would be at a distinct disadvantage. Because I've already decided i'm trying to kill you, and you are just trying to hurt me. You might knock me out and leave, think you have won, and end up dead tomorrow when I catch you and know I have won.

That is why survival is a better standard to use in confrontation. It does not matter what the legal ramifications are, or performance, or ability. it is not subjective.

Winning is subjective, You must determine if you came out ahead of the other person, but often these things can go way beyond the initial encounter.

A real world conflict does not necesarilly end when one person gives up, so when do you decide a winner can be decided?

[IPON]

If it comes down to my life on the line and I can't get away, you better bet i'm going to kill you, or die trying. That is single mindedness of purpose. At that point I'm not worried about whether i'm safe, or injured or taking damage, only about killing my attacker.

I agree, this is an unfiortunate reality and I think one that people have to ask themselves "how far do I go".

[brokenelbow]

X, I don't really disagree with you, but when you say things like...

Let me put it this way, I win every fight I do not get into and have no chance of losing.

I think you're bonkers. With that logic every woman I never asked out on a date counts as a night of wild sex and I stood no chance of rejection.

Every time I fight there is a chance of losing or taking damage" therefore there is a much high chance of losing in actual confrontations than in avoidance. So it is much better to avoid when possible.

No kidding, really? One problem, the incidents that I've been in skipped the avoidance part real fast and went right into confrontation. If I could avoid something I would have, but sometimes things just happen. And I'd guess that I have managed to avoid bad situations, but since they never happened I don't really know.

And it is a bit of a game. I have to figure out what's wrong, how to fix it and what's the best tool for the job and what are my chances.

If it comes down to my life on the line and I can't get away, you better bet i'm going to kill you, or die trying.

Forgive me but I thought the die trying part was funny.

You did not seem to understand that concept of learning from a loss or failure.

If I don't have a good teacher then maybe learning from loss or failure could work. But I'm under a good instructor then if I fail then I failed, there is a gap in my training or I was too stupid to learn something. To me failure sucks and I don't see much positive in it. I've always hated Polly Anna.

[eXcessiveForce]

Usually in a fight there is little to gain, so avoidance is the best option.

What do you gain when you fight a fight that could have been avoided, except maybe acceptance into the idiots of the world club.

Good teacher or No, at some point everyone loses if you get into enough fights. You have been lucky not to have been injured to severely, as have many people. If you do not practice avoidance, someday we will here about you being killed on the news.

Every good teacher that I know of teaches avoidance, verbal de-escalation when it comes to self defense. If yours doesn't, he's not.

[osopardo]

...If I go home tonight I win because i'm still alive....
...if you walk away you win,...
...I win every fight I do not get into...
...it is much better to avoid when possible.

'Zagly!

's all meant when I'se talkin' 'bout puttin' defeat in motion.

[jubaji]

The time I was faced with a loud drunk with a gun, I verbally deescalated the situation and it was resolved without need for a physical confrontation. There were only two choice, in that case, It de-escalated and we both walked away or he died right there. Due to circumstances and positioning I would have broken his neck.
.

hahahahaaaahahahhahaahahahaha! Oh, of course!


What a load of B.S.

[Thai Bri]

Exaclty.

Perhaps she should change her name to "excessive bullshit"

If you must use bullshit? Be excessive!

[jubaji]

Exaclty.

Perhaps she should change her name to "excessive bullshit"

If you must use bullshit? Be excessive!

I dunno...

Something about that just doesn't smell right.

[Thai Bri]

True. A bit excessive.

Mind you, there was always this time when I was surrounded by 15 armed men. In Sherman Tanks. I could have easily broke their necks, but I didn't want to get in trouble.

[jubaji]

True. A bit excessive.

Mind you, there was always this time when I was surrounded by 15 armed men. In Sherman Tanks. I could have easily broke their necks, but I didn't want to get in trouble.

Well of course! There are laws about stuff like that.

[eXcessiveForce]

you all are a bit strange? what would you have done? kick him in the groin with one of those famous low kicks?

That's what I would have tried to do, because it was probably the only thing that would have kept me from being killed if it worked.

Funny thing about the whole thing is, A few months later someone told me the gun was not even loaded. Why someone would carry an unloaded gun is beyond me though.