Why?

[Spookey]

Dear all,

Can someone please assist me with a question...Why are so many people that have little if any real world experience always telling me what will and won't work in combat?

Basically, I fight for a living...I work a security detail in which I deal with gangmembers, drug dealers, and thugs for a living. Not only do I fight "on the clock", but I also survive on a daily basis. Survive what??? Runnin's...where I encounter undesireables in my personal life...ie, the street, market, where have you.

My reason for asking...I have recently been assaulted by an individual who was at least six-two and 275 heavily muscled lbs...these encounters are fairly regular and often accompanied by the subject having an impact weapon (beer bottle, hammer, tire iron, or what ever else they belief they can pull without getting shot). Now bare in mind that I am not superman nor do I expect to be seen as such. I get many scrapes, bruises, and the occasional broken nose, rib, cut above the eye, ect. These things are all par for the coarse. I often fight with multiple combatants whether alone or with assistance so often the worst damage is substained by a blind side (often invisible) ambush.

Regardless, this is what I deal with on a regular basis...now why do soccer dads and teenagers feel like they should be obligated to tell me that this kick won't work, and that throw is no good...ect.

What experience do they have...yes, they did survive "bubba" that night at the local bar, or yes they did survive the football player in the 8th grade locker room, or what ever tragic experience that qualifies them as bonified "Self-defense Experts"...How many 15 year old girls have pulled a razor out of their cheek and come swinnging at you, how many have been in the midst of 400 adult males in fully involved hand to hand combat?

I incourage you all to speak your mind regarding technique, and I humbly appreciate the newbie teen who is fixing to test for his black belt (or yellow for that matter)...but please make sure we are cautious before telling some one that they are wrong or that WE (myself included are right)...granted somethings (methodology) are just plain ridiculous and we are obligated to inform others before they find misforune, but also remember that just because I can't make it work doesn't mean the next guy can't.

Much respect,
Spookey
Taekwon

[ipscshooter]

I can't wait for replies to start rolling in... "You've been in all those fights, and survived? You obviously can't be using an art as ineffective as Taekwon-Do. They have, gasp, 10 year old black belts. Therefore, it's not a 'real' art that will work in a 'real' fight."

Seriously, it's good to hear, from a fellow Ch'ang Hon practitioner, that what we practice can be effective. I've not been in a real fight in my 46 years on this planet, and don't expect to be any time soon. But, I'd like to think that my kids (18 year old and 11 year old black belts) and I are more prepared to handle a situation, should it arise, after 5+ years of practicing TKD.

My 11 year old is the only one of us who has had to use it outside of class. At school, a fight broke out involving one of my son's friends and another, bigger kid. The bigger kid was the antagonist (and based on discussions with my son's teacher, had been bullying my son's friend, and others, all year). He had knocked my son's friend to the ground and was kicking him repeatedly. My son, fearing that his friend could be seriously hurt, stepped in between them. The other kid then started trying to kick my son. He blocked several kicks, and when the other kid didn't quit attacking, my son knocked him on his butt with a reverse punch to the jaw. Due to my son's teacher's description of the events, my son got the minimum punishment available for being in a fight at school... 1 day suspension. The other kid got a week off.

Now, let's hear the criticism. "Oh boy, school yard fight... that really proves a lot." Well, it does prove a number of things. My son honorably defended a friend, risking his own well being in the process, by interceding against a bigger student. (My son is one of the smallest boys in his class). He showed control and restraint. He was able to parry his opponents attacks, and ended the fight with a single strike. He did what was necessary to put an end to the situation, without seriously injuring the other kid. Now, the other kid was not a martial artist, but, in 'real world' fights, how often are both participants trained in unarmed combat? "The other kid was just that, a kid. Thus, it's meaningless." But, I don't find that objection worthy either. The other kid was quite a bit bigger than my son. Proportionally, the rough equivalent of me (5'10", 200#) trying to take on an NFL linebacker. I've heard objections before that "a black belt should be able to handle himself against anyone." But, I think that's unfair. Hey, I'm a black belt, and I've got way better technique than Bob Sapp, who was named Black Belt Magazine's Fighter of the Year or some such nonsense, but, I'd never willingly get in the ring with the guy. He'd kill me. His arms weigh more than my legs. I don't expect my son, even though he is a black belt, to be able to get in the ring with a trained adult black belt who might be three times his size (or in the case of Sapp, 6 times his size ). I expect him to be able to handle himself against others reasonably within his age/size. And, he did that.

[Juninho]

re: what works

may as well say right off the bat that my experience has been with stuff like boxing, muay thai and wrestling, all of which are currently in vogue among mma practicioners, who I guess are the people you're refering to above. TKD wouldn't work for me as I pretty much hate kicking. Despite being able to deadlift about 400lbs I pack all the power of an 8 year old girl into my kicks, where as my punches, elbows etc are much more respectable, (think 12 year old girl...). For that reason I prefer boxing and grappling arts.

However, most of the people who's opinions I respect about 'real fighting' say that pretty much any style CAN be effective, it's all down to how the individual applies it, (re "who's opinion I respect" - that means people like Jamie O'Keefe, Geoff Thompson etc).

IMO 'Real fighting' is primarily about your mental approach - eg how you control your fear, or control your opponent psychologically, then about awareness of danger, then about tactics - eg set-ups, pre-emptive striking etc and then about physical conditioning. Finally we then get onto technique.

If your training can develop the first 4 attributes the actual technique you use is of lesser importance - f'king hell I've seen my short-arsed aggressive mate win fights with a girly looking flurry of slaps and a schoolyard headlock because his ability to channel his fear into aggression scared the shit out of the bloke he was fighting.

The flip side of course, is that your training may merely leave you with a false sense of your own abilities. One of the few fights I've had in my life happened to be with a very cock-sure karate black belt at a wedding, (touch of class eh?). Beforehand his talk was of "breaking every bone in my body", but once I took him to the ground and over extended his elbow joint with a very clumsy arm bar, (I aint even that good a grappler) it focused more on where the nearest A&E department was, (although I shouldn't be, I have to admit to being just a tiny bit proud of this). He clearly hadn't thought through his plan of action before the fight kicked off, he was still mouthing off and squaring off as if we were about to have a spar. Maybe me rushing him was a tad unfair, but you do what you can. Of course it doesn't mean his style was shit, just that he hadn't given any consideration to how he'd apply it outside the dojo.

[Tom Yum]

Spookey

Hi Spookey, nice to hear from you. The reason why people often disregard TKD is that it doesn't consistently produce the same caliber of fighters as muay thai, boxing and wrestling.

This doesn't mean that TKD sucks, rather that people who practice TKD don't do it strictly for combative reasons. This also doesn't mean that TKD is ineffective.

I've seen lots of different kinds of people practice TKD - from women who want to develop some focus and self-confidence through fitness, to guys intrigued with Asian culture to guys who want to kick something or anything really fast and hard. I think TKD has a lot to offer people in terms of general fitness, discipline and basic self-defense.

Most people who get into muay thai or boxing want to immediately improve their fighting skills or reap the benefits of intense conditioning or both. You tend to spend more time with a live dynamic opponent or training partner rather than work on hyungs or self-defense sets. Intensity can vary too - when sparring in thaiboxing or boxing, sometimes you get rocked and try to keep going while working through the pain, if its too much you stop. take a breather and try to continue. Also alot of people who get into muay thai have previous martial arts experience in tae kwon do, boxing, kung fu or jujitsu - all styles that can create their own muay thai hybrid. Think about someone who can allready kick fast and hard at the body and head learning how to throw the thai kick and work the clinch

I have also seen TKD people who can throw kicks that would seperate your head from your body, impail ribs and who were fast and agile enough to kick as fast (or faster) than most people punch. A few TKD fighters are making their way up the ranks in the world of full-contact fighting - one of them is Serkhan Yilmaz (spelling?). He is from Turkey. He has a fierce and flashy TKD kicking style, and solid boxing skills. He fought against K-1 champion Masato, and lasted the entire fight putting on a great show without getting KOd. He lost by decision, only because his low leg kick defense wasn't there. He is fighting in K-1 more often against big names and is holding his own.

[Tom Yum]

Tkd

If I was going to take TKD, I would prefer to master a few additional kicks - side kick, spinning back kick and wheel kick, twist kick and hook kick. TKD does a great job at increasing your overall kicking speed and mobility.

On top of that, I would want to learn how to sweep, a techique that exists in Korean martial arts, but is neglected in favor of kicks that you won't use that often - the tornado kicks, 360 spin kicks, crescent kick etc. Sweeping is very effective and the art of setting it up is deceptive.

I'm not that interested in hyungs, 100s of sets of techniques to defend against the lunge punch or TKD style sparring.

[Thai Bri]

ipscshooter - you're kid did good. Pat on the back from me.

[IPON]

The reason why people often disregard TKD is that it doesn't consistently produce the same caliber of fighters as muay thai, boxing and wrestling.

Actually, I would have to disagree. It has nothing to do with these other arts. People dismiss TKD becuase of how much it has been watered down. Becuase of the 8-10year old BB and because of teh tournament pros that understand very little about power in the technique. It is an unfortunate reality but a reality in any case. Now while this may be certain types of TKD everybody does generalize. I understood TKD from my uncle and while there were alot of kicks it was balaced with good hand strikes. I thought all TKD was like that and I was wrong.

But I do agree with you and spookey that people assume too much. Becuase one studies combative or MT or BJJ or whatever, does not automatically ensure quick and easy victory over a TKD stylist. Anybody can get their ass handed to them ...... period.

[IPON]

may as well say right off the bat that my experience has been with stuff like boxing, muay thai and wrestling, all of which are currently in vogue among mma practicioners, who I guess are the people you're refering to above. TKD wouldn't work for me as I pretty much hate kicking.

Not to be sarcastic, but if you hate kicking why do MT (or did you discover you hated kicking from MT)

[MADDOG]

Real TKD is so much more than kicks only.

Yes, TKD is proficient at the kicking range. The philosophy of TKD was to make your legs as proficient as your hands in combat.

But, TKD is much more than kicks only. Knees, throws, elbows, chokes, locks, breaks, fingers, biting and head butting was and is still part of the curriculum of some TKD schools.

I do not blame the general public for the perception of TKD being ineffective in self-defense.

For the experienced martial artists there is no excuse for lumping all of TKD in to this sorry perception.

Go to an Old Style TKD that is not affiliated with a major international organization.

Go to a renegade TKD School that still maintains the may TKD was and should be today.

Or just Go to an independent school of any style and have fun and learn something new. The MA is a family where we can all learn from each other and advance our own individual art.

If you been in the MA long enough you do not see the differences in the arts but the great similarities that they all have.

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[Yaberdaber]

Hi Spookey, nice to hear from you. The reason why people often disregard TKD is that it doesn't consistently produce the same caliber of fighters as muay thai, boxing and wrestling.

Any art can be stated that it doesn't produce effective fighters, but that completely depends on who'se training them and what the trainees' devotion are. Mind you, it all depends on every individual's want.

[Tom Yum]

Real TKD is so much more than kicks only.

Yes, TKD is proficient at the kicking range. The philosophy of TKD was to make your legs as proficient as your hands in combat.

But, TKD is much more than kicks only. Knees, throws, elbows, chokes, locks, breaks, fingers, biting and head butting was and is still part of the curriculum of some TKD schools.

I do not blame the general public for the perception of TKD being ineffective in self-defense.

For the experienced martial artists there is no excuse for lumping all of TKD in to this sorry perception.

Go to an Old Style TKD that is not affiliated with a major international organization.

Go to a renegade TKD School that still maintains the may TKD was and should be today.

Or just Go to an independent school of any style and have fun and learn something new. The MA is a family where we can all learn from each other and advance our own individual art.

If you been in the MA long enough you do not see the differences in the arts but the great similarities that they all have.

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

What you are describing sounds kind of like Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do, which de-emphasize tournaments and emphasize fighting.

I watched a Tang Soo class and the instructor emphasized simplicity and smarts in fighting - definitely a good sign. They did some sparring drills with modified outside and inside parries against straight punches and hooks

They did counter striking with either straight palm strikes, knife hands and elbows aimed at various targets. The counter techniques were economical in motion either one or two per attack, done quickly actually making moderate contact and then coiling back into the fight stance. They didn't hold the punch out with the other fist by the hips - the school was certainly modern and somewhat realistic.

They did defenses against front snap kicks, round kicks and side kicks; then moved on to defenses against standing head locks and bear hugs. I thought this was a good class. Most of their kick defenses either involved seizing the leg and striking or throwing or moving out of the way and countering.

I was impressed. I didn't get a chance to see them spar, but from what I understand its done with a fair amount of contact and allows punches and kicks above the waste and sweeping.

[Juninho]

re IPON

Just because I hate kicking doesn't mean it's not worth learning to defend against. Muay Thai is also superlative for knees, elbows and clinch work. Plus the fact that I have a fecking awesome Muay Thai gym five mins from my front door. It would be a crime really not to go there.

[ipscshooter]

ipscshooter - you're kid did good. Pat on the back from me.

Thai Bri... Thank you... You were the one from whom I most expected a verbal drubbing.

[Spookey]

Dear All,

Hey All,


First, I would like to thank you for your support...thought I was gonna get blasted...

Secondly, I beg you to seek out the dojangs that Mr. Barton speaks of...I am currently overseeing a small back yard dojang with all 6 students (when everyone can show up). We are as old school as it gets. I agree with the comment made by Mr. Barton, TKD artist did set out to make the feet as proficient with the hands, and mine are...but what people overlook is the fact that I have hands!

I do not do spinning back kicks in the middle of a rumble...I punch, knee, elbow, and throw...I MAY throw a short (Low) side kick, turning kick, or snap kick...and that is not a top priority...

Anyhow, when you find a TKD guy who can use his hands...watch out for his feet.

Mr. Barton, I would love to work on those more advanced techniques with you one day...what say we start with the reverse punch!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Thai Bri]

Thai Bri... Thank you... You were the one from whom I most expected a verbal drubbing.

No way man. Kids are much more precious than all the martial arts put together. Who cares what he used? It was his courage and decency that shone through. I salute him (and you).

My own son has been bullied many times. He is not assertive and they sense that he will do nothing back. I train with him, and he finds it hard to believe that he is tough. He hits like a mule and knows many dirty tricks. Its just his confidence I guess.

He flipped earlier this year and used the Shredder to rip some kids face apart. My brothers friend's kid saw it, and she said that my lad dominated the fight so much that he was even waving to the crowd as he tortured the bad guy.

He gets bullied less now......