Why do sports TKD participants don't keep hands up?

[dodgeduckdodge]

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Evasion is important, never said it wasn't. But you have to be an ignorant fool to rely only on that and not keep your guard up.

You have to be an ignorant fool to rely on your guard as the first line of defense.

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

So you're saying that our TKD club is bad?
I told you that they teach us how to have a proper and correct guard.
I have only got ONE kick in the head during my 5½ years doing Taekwondo, and that guy had been training longer than me. But that was a couple of years ago...
Nowdays I am both good at defensive and offensive. I have quick and powerful kicks and punches and blocks, but still I always wants to be better ^^

TAEKWON!!

One kick? WOW. So there are no good kickers in your school over the past 5 1/2 years? Even the greatest Olympians, kickboxers, etc get knocked out from time to time.

"even Monkey's fall from trees" - Buddha

Alcohol

[TKD Student]

One kick? WOW. So there are no good kickers in your school over the past 5 1/2 years? Even the greatest Olympians, kickboxers, etc get knocked out from time to time.

"even Monkey's fall from trees" - Buddha

Alcohol

There are lots of great kickers in my school. But I always try to keep distance or keep my hands up to make it as hard ass possible for the opponent to kick me in the head. And yes, it works good for me.

[dodgeduckdodge]

I left the WTF about 8 years before there was a national team.

In fact, I've been teaching since about the time there was a national team.

As I said, I have no use for WTF or olympic sparring. They have absolutely no bearing on reality.

The USA National Team, and the WTF were created at the same time (1973), so how could you have left the WTF 8 years before it was created?

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

I left before the creation of the olympic team. I was in the Taekwondo demonstrations for the Olympic festival though the year it was added to the olympics.

What did you demonstrate at the Olympic Festival?

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

I did many things at the festival Demo.

Sparring, Board Breaks and Forms.

There were 4 matches for men and 4 for women if memory serves as a festival event, but I was not a part of those just watched.

I even got to see myself on the news.

OK, so if I understand you correctly, you were never a competitor at the Olympic Festival. You were part of a group that gave demonstrations for the crowd of spectators?

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

yes, I was part of the demonstrations not the competition.


As for keeping your hands up, If this olympic competitior had kept his hands up and stepped forward the korean would have ended up on his face. Instead the guy takes a kick to the head and is knocked out. knock out occurs about 3:20 seconds into clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSsEniLha5M

So you were never involved in WTF competition, you were just a demostration member.

This makes sense to me now. Since you have no experience fighting in Official WTF sanctioned events against elite players, like the guys in your video link, you really have no concept of these intricacies.

This is why you think keeping your hands up will save you. However, more people have been knocked out while holding their hands up. They feel a false sense of security and FAIL to move.

And your example of the Greek player getting knocked out by Dae Sung Moon (the Korean) is actually in favor of the "learn to move" instead of block school of thought. When Greece attacked Dae Sung, he did not hold his hands up by his head hoping to fend off the attack. He moved, and countered with a knockout kick.

Besides, I know Dae Sung Moon (the Korean). He is a friend of mine - we are from the same Grandmaster - and if he decided to knock out either you, or I, hands up or down would not save us.

If your logic were sound, then boxers would never get knocked out while holding their hands up, yet, we see it happen all the time.

My advise to you and anyone wanting to avoid knockouts? Learn to move better first, learn to cover/block later.

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

Who said I haven't fought top players. I already said I have sparred with a korean national team member, I have also sparred with people who have competed at hight levels. I gave up competition a long time ago, I don't get paid to fight I get paid for teaching others to fight.

It has nothing to do with intricacies, it has everything to do with not getting your butt knocked out. Every green belt should know move then block.

I don't worry about too much about getting knocked out, I have sparred with professional kickboxers, world champions and rated blackbelts.

The difference is, I no longer care about competition. I have not cared for quite awhile.

I only care about combat effectiveness and what they do in the olympics has nothing to do with that.

I don't see to many boxers fight with there hands down for a whole match, nor MMA people. When you take TKD outside of the game for the olympics you better damn well guard your head.

Again, that explains it, you never competed in WTF events. You just sparred around with a few Elite players.

Do not confuse "Sparring" Elite players with the same thing as meeting them in the ring.

They learned a long time ago not to beat down on just anybody. Most all Elite TKD players, like Elite Cage fighters, will play to your level. To bad you never got in the ring at an Official WTF event. If you had, your opinion about this issue would be a lot different and you would not be teaching your students that the most important thing is to keep your hand up.

And your right, I don't see to many boxers with their hands down the whole match, but I do see a lot of boxers get knocked out while holding their hands up.............haven't you seen the same?

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

I have never seen someone get knocked out by holding their hands up. I see them get knocked out by getting hit in the head. It's also not very effective to have your hands down when you actually want to punch someone with a jab, cross or hook

Getting your hands up is the first step, learning what the hell to do with them once they are up is the trick.

I watch a lot of boxing. Most boxers who get knocked out had their hands up when it happened. Get Mike Tyson's greatest hits, or search Youtube.

I agree that it is important to keep your hands in attack/defense ready mode. Also, do not drop your hands during the recovery phase of your fist attack. They should be brought back instinctively to the guard position. However, that is secondary to good body/head movement.

As an instructor/trainer/coach, we should always tell our students that:

#1. Excellent evasive movement is primary. This is a skill you must have.
#2. Do not depend on the guard as a first line of defense. Move!
#3. In order to have an effective secondary defense, it must be instinctive
to have the hands in the guard postition.
#4. Not moving, or not having hands in the guard position, should be intentional - for a purpose (traps, counters, set ups, etc.)

Alcohol

Watch some good boxers train. Especially early Tyson training video. He was pro at moving his body and head. It was next to impossible for great boxers to land a good hit on his head. Why? because he moved so well......... check it out.

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

LOL, yeah I guess when the world champ told me I'd be the next world champ he was coming down to my level. You assume an awful lot for not having much info about me.

Actually I have competed at a WTF sanction event, guess you missed the point about me being in the WTF for quite a while. I just have no use for such things now.

Keep your hands down if you want, teach your students to do so if you want, But they are gonna get elbowed in the face when they don't have the rules to protect them. Or they are going to take a shin to the head and it will be lights out. It's amazing what you can get away with when people aren't allowed to punch you in the head, throw elbows, or grab and throw you on the ground.

You train for sport, that's fine if that's your goal, just don't try and pass if off as a street effective martial art.

What I know about you comes from what you type here, no more, no less.

However, I do like to get to know folks. And I do like to cut through the confusion and get down to brass tack facts.

I think now we are getting somewhere. Sometimes folks are confused. They fight in some local tournament held by some grandmaster and are told this is a WTF sanctioned event, when if fact, that never happens.

There is only one WTF sanctioned open event in the USA. It's called the US Open. It was started by Master Sang Lee almost 20 years ago. He gave it to the USTU about 10 years ago and it goes in until this day. Any Black Belt can enter it. Did you compete in the US Open in the 19 to 32 year old Black Belt sparring division?

If you did not, the only other way that you could have competed in an open WTF sanctioned event is if you went to a similar open, like the Belgium Open, or the Spainish or Korean Open.

If it was not a WTF sanctioned open event, then you had to be a National Team Member of the USTU and have competed in the World Championships, or Pan Am Games. If that was the case, I would know who you are. I would also know the world champion you sparred with.

I don't expect you to reveal your identity, heck, I don't really want to know. I do though want you to be specific and detailed. If you feel WTF fighting has no value for real world self defense, I would really like to know what you base your opinion on. So whether or not you fought in the REAL WTF, really matters.

Kindest Regards,

Alcohol

BTW: No one can be a member of, or be "in" the WTF. Only national bodys, like the USTU and now the USAT can be members, or be in the WTF. (unless you were an officer or committee member)

[dodgeduckdodge]

I agree movement is important, footwork is one of the least utilized skills at most schools.

What I see though is people getting knocked out mostly during their attack because they have their hands down, they throw their kick and become stationary because they are planted on the pivoting leg. A forward guard in this instance would save a lot of them. Forward pressure would too.

I know, that means they lack movement skill, and did not back up with a guard. I teach my students not to plant the pivot leg on the ground when kicking, during the kick and on impact, it is ideal to have the supporting foot, just ever so slightly touching the ground, if at all. I also teach them to attack during the recovery phase of their opponents movement, when it is very difficult, if not impossible for most to counter.

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

LOL, yeah I guess when the world champ told me I'd be the next world champ he was coming down to my level. You assume an awful lot for not having much info about me.

Actually I have competed at a WTF sanction event, guess you missed the point about me being in the WTF for quite a while. I just have no use for such things now.

Keep your hands down if you want, teach your students to do so if you want, But they are gonna get elbowed in the face when they don't have the rules to protect them. Or they are going to take a shin to the head and it will be lights out. It's amazing what you can get away with when people aren't allowed to punch you in the head, throw elbows, or grab and throw you on the ground.

You train for sport, that's fine if that's your goal, just don't try and pass if off as a street effective martial art.

Because I discuss Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic sparring) does not mean it is the only type of sparring I teach my students. Currently I teach about 10 types of the 17 types of Kukkiwon Taekwondo sparring. However, I do believe it is the most valuable of 17. It's limited nature is what makes it valuable.

As for "street" or real world self defense fighting? No one can teach anyone much about that. You have to live it to learn it. If your not living in it everyday and every minute of your life, it can't be understood and it can't be taught.

I always liked the scene in Apocalypse Now when Martin Sheen was in his Saigon hotel room. He said something to the effect "The longer I sit in this room, the longer Charlie squats in the bush, the stronger he gets, the weaker I get"

When it comes to being a bad M--------- /// no truer words were ever spoken.

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

Granted I'm not up on the WTF anymore,

what about the las vegas open?

Or the Chicago and New York Open which are listed on the WTF's site?

As for the rest of this,

Sparring under strict rules and protective gear is what makes it not very applicable to effective defense. I'm not saying someone couldn't be effective that does olympic sparring, But the sparring isn't adequate to train them.

I do not agree that you cannot teach realistic self defense. The more realistic you make it the more applicable it will be to self defense.

Check out Straight Blast Gym's Alive Training. Or to how some JKD schools train.

the more rules you add the further from reality you get.

interesting conversation, but it's time for me to get to bed.

Limited sparring is the best way to isolate and develop primary techniques to the highest level possible.

Las Vegas, New York and Chicago Open? No such WTF sanctioned events exist. You say these are listed on the WTF site? Please provide the link, I searched the site and did not see them.

Everyone is jumping on the combat ready/real self defense wagon. Lot's of cash to be made there, and nothing wrong with that. I have not seen many JKD people train, but what I have seen is hilarious. Any good video's of JKD on the web?

Alcohol

[npk9]

Try this. Enter the USAT 18 to 29 year old black belt division at a regional qualifier, film it and put it on youtube, then get back to me.

Otherwise, you just won't ever understand.

Alcohol

I looked up the website - this is too confusing for me. Wouldn't be better if you showed me personally how difficult it is? I'll go to you if need be - I really have always wanted to see the differences.

The reason why I bring San Da up is due to the fact that you are insinuating that blocking is only secondary to movement coupled with your belief that this goes beyond the sport of TKD with the USAT rules.

Have you ever fought or competited outside of TKD?

[dodgeduckdodge]

I looked up the website - this is too confusing for me. Wouldn't be better if you showed me personally how difficult it is? I'll go to you if need be - I really have always wanted to see the differences.

The reason why I bring San Da up is due to the fact that you are insinuating that blocking is only secondary to movement coupled with your belief that this goes beyond the sport of TKD with the USAT rules.

Have you ever fought or competited outside of TKD?

No, it's very easy. Your age, weight and your $35 - boom, your a member and can enter any USAT event in your weight. What is your age and weight?

Are there any websites with San Da video I can watch?

Yes, boxed for years, trained in Karate, Esrima, fought Muay Thai, etc.
Most of all I ran the street of the inner city as a kid and teen, that is where the real fights took place.

These experiences are why I place a great value on Olympic TKD competition training. Remember, it's not the only way I train my students, however, it is the most valuable. Everything else is second.

Alcohol