combining organizational forms

[JStinson]

I am talking about forms re done - worse than new, from scratch, that I have to be able to know forward and backwards, at the drop of a hat! Just think muscle memory, and routine, subtle differences or mirror image moves...it is harder to unlearn than to learn fresh!

That is why I think changing forms is not a good idea. I know what you are talking about when it comes to "unlearning." I have to get people to do that when they have previous experience before coming to my school. Mainly lots of bad habits though. When I first learned the Chang Han set, I learned them "redone." Changed schools and found I was not doing them the way Choi had done them. All that work for 'nil.

[GranFire]

Relearning 7 forms is not the same as learning new forms, although it is a big task. If you want to practice forms in a traditional sense, you would learn 1, maybe 2 forms at the most and learn what the forms are used for.

I am talking about forms re done - worse than new, from scratch, that I have to be able to know forward and backwards, at the drop of a hat! Just think muscle memory, and routine, subtle differences or mirror image moves...it is harder to unlearn than to learn fresh!

[dodgeduckdodge]

All you have to do is 1) look at them, just modifications in the stances and 2)look at the people who made the forms, they practiced another set before they come up with them. They got ideas from the earlier sets to make the "new" sets. The forms were not culminations of decades of work, they were done in a short time. That tells me they had a template to go by.

When it comes to organizations and forms, even the same form set is done differently in each organization. There is no set standard for them. Some instructors forget some of the parts of the form, some change them to fit their wants and some try to recreat them. This takes tradition and shoves it out the door. This is one of the reasons I quit doing TKD at the organization level and just concentrate on Hapkido, no forms!!!!

The Palgwe, Yudanja/Kodanja and Taegeuk Poomsae did not come from the Chang Hon Hyungs.

As a matter of fact.........

From the 1940's up to the creation of the Palgwe and Dan Poomsae in 1965-67, all the Kwans of that era used the Pyong Ahn and related Dan Hyungs. No Kwan's except Oh Do Kwan used their newly created Chang Hon set (along side the Pyong Ahns).

Oh Do Kwan had only one member on the Poomsae Committee that created the Palgwe, Dan and Taegeuk Poomsae and he had not even completely learned the few existing - and newly created Chang Hon Hyungs at that time. His practice for over 15 years was with the Pyong Ahn and related Dan Hyungs.

However, regardless of historical fact, all we have to do is look at the Taegeuk Poomsae, done by the Kukkiwon standard, and we can see that is far removed from the large clunky movements of the Chang Hon Hyungs created by NAM and HAN. If anything, it is clear that the first 3 taegeuk Poomsaes are direct descendants of the early Okinawans forms and not reworked Chang Hon hyungs.

Alcohol

[JStinson]

Why would you say that so-called WTF forms are just recreations of the ITF forms?

Alcohol

All you have to do is 1) look at them, just modifications in the stances and 2)look at the people who made the forms, they practiced another set before they come up with them. They got ideas from the earlier sets to make the "new" sets. The forms were not culminations of decades of work, they were done in a short time. That tells me they had a template to go by.

When it comes to organizations and forms, even the same form set is done differently in each organization. There is no set standard for them. Some instructors forget some of the parts of the form, some change them to fit their wants and some try to recreat them. This takes tradition and shoves it out the door. This is one of the reasons I quit doing TKD at the organization level and just concentrate on Hapkido, no forms!!!!

[JStinson]

I hate to tell you that, but (going through major changes in my organization, including forms) what it all boils down to is what the Big Wigs on top think. It's Egos and politics.

Having to learn multiple forms at the same time is a feat! I know because I had to relearn 7 in for month. Frankly, while there is a reason for the forms to be like they are - in some way....the fact that there are umpteen organizations, each with their own variation of forms, ought to give you food for thought.

One can, of course practice all forms for the sake of tradition...I for one am glad if I keep up with current events.

Relearning 7 forms is not the same as learning new forms, although it is a big task. If you want to practice forms in a traditional sense, you would learn 1, maybe 2 forms at the most and learn what the forms are used for.

[dodgeduckdodge]

First of all you have to know what you want out of the organization/federation. If it is a "legit" organization they want certain standards. Some will say they want everything done a certain way, others will sway a little. I have seen schools teach Taegeuk, Chang Han and Palgue forms, way too much in my opinion. Even in the black belt levels of the "ITF" forms there are multiple forms.

My question is why reinvent the wheel? Choose the pattern set that complements you and study the patterns to see what they are all about. Believe it or not, there is a lifetime of information in a form let alone a set. But one the same hand, the Chang Han are just a reinvention of Shotokan forms and the "WTF" patterns are just interpretations of the Chang Han set. So people are reinventing all the time.

Guess it all comes down to this, what is it that you want out of forms????

Why would you say that so-called WTF forms are just recreations of the ITF forms?

Alcohol

[GranFire]

I hate to tell you that, but (going through major changes in my organization, including forms) what it all boils down to is what the Big Wigs on top think. It's Egos and politics.

Having to learn multiple forms at the same time is a feat! I know because I had to relearn 7 in for month. Frankly, while there is a reason for the forms to be like they are - in some way....the fact that there are umpteen organizations, each with their own variation of forms, ought to give you food for thought.

One can, of course practice all forms for the sake of tradition...I for one am glad if I keep up with current events.

[JStinson]

First of all you have to know what you want out of the organization/federation. If it is a "legit" organization they want certain standards. Some will say they want everything done a certain way, others will sway a little. I have seen schools teach Taegeuk, Chang Han and Palgue forms, way too much in my opinion. Even in the black belt levels of the "ITF" forms there are multiple forms.

My question is why reinvent the wheel? Choose the pattern set that complements you and study the patterns to see what they are all about. Believe it or not, there is a lifetime of information in a form let alone a set. But one the same hand, the Chang Han are just a reinvention of Shotokan forms and the "WTF" patterns are just interpretations of the Chang Han set. So people are reinventing all the time.

Guess it all comes down to this, what is it that you want out of forms????

[wsdddoa012]

response

JStinson,

so would any of the korean martial arts organizations or federations act on someone combining different organizational forms? or let's say for that matter coming up with there own idea and using tae kwon do as a backbone for that idea?

[JStinson]

I guess some people call them the "WTF forms" just as people call them ITF forms. They associate the forms with a particular group of people. They are not "ITF forms", they are called Chang Han forms.

[wsdddoa012]

response

Well better I guess to just make up a few katas instead of combining two different sets... hmmmm

[dodgeduckdodge]

OK hypothetical.... What would happen if someone did decide to teach both ITF and WTF forms in the same cirriculum?.. Seeing how they dont like mixing up things.


And yes I did know that dodgeduckdodge..

You know? Why do you still continue to call it as "WTF forms" when there is no such thing?

Actually there are a number of school in the USA that teach a mix of the ITF hyungs/tuls and the Kukkiwon Poomsae (palgwe & taegeuk and related dan).

I find it extremely odd, unless that Sabum is from Oh Do Kwan roots. Then, it can be said the Sabum still teachers their old kwan forms.

I know of instructors who teach ITF forms along with Kukkiwon Poomsae and claim that the ITF are "traditional". This is complete ignorance.

My opinion on instructors teaching Palgwe Poomsae is not much better.

Alcohol

[JStinson]

If one chose to teach the WTF and ITF forms, I would say there would be alot of confused students. Too many forms!! I have done both and would say they are enough different that I would not try to learn them at the same time. When I taught TKD, I could never get people to do one form right per level let alone two of them.

[wsdddoa012]

response

OK hypothetical.... What would happen if someone did decide to teach both ITF and WTF forms in the same cirriculum?.. Seeing how they dont like mixing up things.


And yes I did know that dodgeduckdodge..

[GranFire]

So in other words that bad huh?

I am nowhere near those orgs... but it can't be good! Till everybody had their say-so (not to mention egos!) It all comes out in the wash though...