Taekwondo as a Delivery system

[eXcessiveForce]

So many people on the forums put down TKD as Ineffective.

What I want to know is what EXACTLY do people believe is ineffective.

My school has won converts from many other systems. But I will grant you that our TKD does not resemble the Sport TKD of the WTF and ITF.

Our system uses boxing type handwork,
Kicks to all area's
Kicks of both the snap and Thai type
We do have ground fighting based on GJJ
In comparison we have found some element of Silat and Kali in the system.
We do weapons
We spar and all contact levels
We spar with very few rules at Black belt level.
We spar with Weapons
We have pressure points
We have joint manipulation.
We teach awareness and avoidance
We teach improvised weapons.
We can compete in all competitions including MMA if we so choose

We do not wear chest protectors generally.

I've been told that I no longer teach Taekwondo because as Ryan Hall puts it, "ultra modified tkd"

but i have always tried to improve our programs. I was taught to do things differently than they are being taught today thoughout the country. But I have resisted many of the advances towards Mcdojo status and try to stay close to the original concepts I was taught as a child.
We started with no sparring gear where full power techniques were used in sparring but to the wrong target. For example, a punch to the head is aimed at the edge of the jaw, not through it. Injuries went up when we started wearing gear.

We use kata training to teach techniques and basic combination structure. But the focus of training is sparring and pad work.


Now I'll give you that many schools train poorly. That many people take tkd for reasons other than combat. But what I want to know is what do you feel are the flaws in TKD as a system.
I do not care that you saw a TKD person beat by a grappler or a Muay Thai person or boxer. I have seen the reverse.

This is a serious inquiry to those in the know. Not highschoolers who think that the are combat experts because they beat up a kid in their class.

[Great Sage]

Re: Taekwondo as a Delivery system

eXcessive,

Good objective post BTW... But I think that if you’ve changed your TKD that drastically, then you already know what it lacks. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have gone to great lengths to incorporate other techniques and change the way TKD is taught. However, this iswhy I feel TKD is lacking in some regards:

UNRELIABLE STRUCTURE
The core of TKD is unreliable. TKD teaches superficial techniques such as : low block, outer block, front stance, back stance, etc... that don’t represent real movement. Often, these techniques are drilled to death, yet they aren’t used in sparring or competition. In contrast, boxing teaches the primary tools (jab, hook & cross) right away and lets you build from there. Muscle memory, reaction and contraction are a result of training actual movements of a given task. If a person is practicing static postures all day, it does nothing for them during live events: sparring or fighting.

MENTAL & PHYSICAL TOUGHNESS
Toughness, whether mental or physical is instilled through training. If a person is well-conditioned and engages in very physical training, he will become accustomed to hard work. Unfortunately, most TKD gyms don’t go as far as working and toughening their participants. Regardless of a student’s intentions, if the system wants to preserve it’s integrity, it needs to push, push and push.

POOR TECHNIQUES
This goes back to the structure of TKD and beyond. TKD, in it’s purity, lacks effective punching power and techniques. Reverse punch techniques just don’t cut it. Furthermore, there is anbundance of low-probablility techniques: Tornado kick, crescent kicks, jumping kicks, etc... most of which will only get your leg caught or jammed.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Allow me to point out some things in your post that will highlight why I think TKD has issues, even as a foundation for other things:

Our system uses boxing type handwork,
Kicks to all area's
Kicks of both the snap and Thai type
We do have ground fighting based on GJJ
In comparison we have found some element of Silat and Kali in the system.
We do weapons
We spar and all contact levels
We spar with very few rules at Black belt level.
We spar with Weapons
We have pressure points
We have joint manipulation.
We teach awareness and avoidance
We teach improvised weapons.
We can compete in all competitions including MMA if we so choose


I need to qualify my comments as I have never taken TKD. I did take about 2 months of Tang Soo Do as a youth.

You deviate heavily from the TKD norm, at least as I understand it.

If you take tomato juice and mix in some vodka, pepper, horseradish, lemon juice, ice, and a straw you no longer have tomato juice.

If you take TKD, add in joint manipulation from Hapkido, ground work from GJJ, pressure point info from Dillman, and many other things you no longer have TKD.

****
Any style that teaches one dimension of conflict excluding any or all of the others is a very weak foundational art. There are many good aspects to TKD that get missed and I think that is due to the fact that the more stable systems address those particular aspects in a more complete manner.

For example, the art I train as my foundation gives me strong understanding in the basic principles that I have found to be consistent in Judo and Gracie Jiu-jitsu. I can critically evaluate other systems, such as Dillman's Kempo, Shaolin Kung-Fu and Aikido. And find the principles of how they do what they do.

In the past I have trained with about 5 or 6 individuals who are TKD stylists. They understand the moves very well, but they lack a deeper understanding of what is happening and why.

This may not be the norm, but it is the experience that I have based my conclusions on.

Good topic!

Spanky

[brokenelbow]

If you take tomato juice and mix in some vodka, pepper, horseradish, lemon juice, ice, and a straw you no longer have tomato juice.

Sure you do, it's just in an advanced form. Point is why so hung up on a name? TKD itself is from Shotokan which is from shorin which is from...

The core of TKD is unreliable. TKD teaches superficial techniques such as : low block, outer block, front stance, back stance, etc... that don’t represent real movement.

Yes and no. The movements themselves are OK but they have to part of something more. Without footwork, body shifting, angling and knowing what the block is setting up they are a waste. I personally prefer narrower more upright stances for standup.

[magic]

A rose by any other name . . .

Personally, I find it comforting to start with a mainstream, traditional MA like WTF TKD, and then add/delete to make a system that suits me. I will always have TKD to fall back on, I have world-wide accreditation via the Kukkiwon, but I am free to add whatever I want.

I prefer this scenario over the "hey look, I founded my own system complete with oriental-sounding name" scenario that was so popular in the 80's and 90's. Imagine moving to another state/country with a black belt in Joe San Do!

Elements of trad. TKD suck - but its not the only MA with a reverse punch or a horse stance!

A good thread BTW!

[IPON]

eXcessiveForce: I actually don't have a problem with the style as I do with the multitude of uneducated instructors and training ethics.

I find value in a proper reverse punch (in the right situation) but will always prfer western boxing hand techniques.

I think that there is an overreliance on kicking techniques and anunder reliance on striking. I love kicking but the problem is that people train for torunament first then street if at all. So people do not realize that all kicks are not good to use all he time.
Also, the sparring is for Tornament which limiting as strikes are only landed in teh torso.

The inbstructors are generally horrible.....I knew a coworker that had to quit TKD due to injuries which after talking to her had to do with experience of teh instrcutor who recived his BB a few months prior and decided to open a school. People don't know , so when they see BB the think bow to the master.

I don't think that you change the style becuase you suppliment with other techniques. Weapons training is great and I think necessary to keep the tradition of MA.

anyway my 2 cents

[Damian Mavis]

I'm not trying to cut on WTF TKD but I train and teach ITF TKD and it is basically western kickboxing, it was a great foundation for me to go into full contact Muay Thai. One thing became obvious to me while I was training in Thailand and that was that I had great reflexes from my 13 years in TKD and had some extra weapons and angles of attack that my opponents would not have that could give me an advantage and take them by surprise. I even won my first fight with a stereotypical TKD kick (turning side kick).

On December 1st I move to Thailand and plan to continue my amateur fight career and then go pro if things go well, I'll be able to give more information then on how successful some TKD moves are in the ring.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[brokenelbow]

Damian, a friend of mine who competes in MT hates guys that have good TKD skills to go along with the MT. According to him the fast kicking combos are a pain and the side kicks are worse than teeps to get hit with. He still won but he had to force the fights in close. Good luck with your training Damian.


By the way everyone, when we say reverse punch we mean a punch from the side further back and not the twisting motion. Right?

[Damian Mavis]

Thanks Brokenelbow, I try to work on my weaknesses in Muay Thai alot so that I can actually use my TKD effectivley but still have the Muay Thai arsenal and foundation to work from. For me a TKD technique should be used sparingly as a "surprise" to catch your opponent off guard and hopefully knock them out. This is actually pretty effective versus Thai fighters as they do not see these kinds of techniques often if at all compared to Western fighters that see alot of karate and TKD.

I think it's really important for a fighter coming from a background like me to get Muay Thai down completely and then slowly learn to incorporate techniques from other arts. I hated the clinch when I first started Muay Thai over 2 years ago but with all the practice I have learned to love the clinch.

One of the training drills I do is to train until I'm exhausted with straight Muay Thai drills and THEN work my TKD attacks from a exhausted state and try to work accuracy and power while tired since in the ring I will most likely try these when both me and my opponent are pretty tired late in the fight.

I always thought of reverse punch as a right cross.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[falcon3624]

Re: Taekwondo as a Delivery system

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
Our system uses boxing type handwork,
Kicks to all area's
Kicks of both the snap and Thai type
We do have ground fighting based on GJJ
In comparison we have found some element of Silat and Kali in the system.
We do weapons
We spar and all contact levels
We spar with very few rules at Black belt level.
We spar with Weapons
We have pressure points
We have joint manipulation.
We teach awareness and avoidance
We teach improvised weapons.
We can compete in all competitions including MMA if we so choose

We do not wear chest protectors generally.

That doesn't sound like TKD at all.

[eXcessiveForce]

We have to call it something. And it was started by koreans and run by koreans and they add things along the way. In fact the guy who started the system tried to get Kukkiwon to make changes but they refused so he left and started his own system. And now it has more people training in it than any other single style.

[Damian Mavis]

I think I misunderstand your last statement heh. That style of TKD you described has more people doing it than any other style of TKD worldwide? Is that what you are saying?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[doubleouch]

I trained traditional TKD for over 15 years, both WTF and ITF. I now train JKD with straight blast. What I found lacking was the training methods. If you apply proper training methods then your arsenal will automatically move to what is practical and useful. You will automatically reject what is useless. It becomes a natural process of good training methods. It is all about alive training. If you do that you can start with whatever you know, or whatever art you happen to have available to you. Aliveness forces you to test and modify, test and modify some more and it will eventually start to develop into something very useful to you. Call it whatever you want! In fact at straightblast we hardly ever use the term JKD anymore.

[fullcircle]

I have a BB in both ITF and WTF, there are obvious holes and I have and continue to study other styles to fill those holes. TKD was a great way for me to start 18 yrs. ago, it's fairly simple in it's movements (though not always effective) I gained flexibility and most importantly what I call "martial sense" by that I mean I learned how (or started learning would be a better statement) and why certain movements are done and got my intro to sparring, etc. Granted, I have a bb in Kyokushin, have studied MT and am now studying BJJ, but none of it would have started if I didn't step into that first TKD class. Fortunately, I had a great instructor and school and I totally agree that alot of the TKD schools and instructors nowadays suck, unfortunate but true. A martial art system comes down to the individual when it's all said and done, I could hand someone a gun, doesn't mean they can shoot it.

[falcon3624]

Well if I am not mistaken TKD originally came from styles like Gojo-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu. When TKD was given it's name and made into it's own style alot of the "karate" stuff was thrown out of the style. Could it be this style is going back to the begining roots of TKD from when it was first originated from karate?