Traditianal MA vs Sport MA

[Great Sage]

This post was inspired by something that was said in the Korean Arts forum regarding ITF vs WTF. What is better, sport MA’s or traditional MA’s? Personally, I feel that while traditional arts strive to be combative, they fail miserably and are less formidable than sport martial arts. Here are my reasons.

COMPETITION vs NON-COMPETITION
Most traditional arts don’t compete. They prefer to dwell in theory and practice. However, sport martial arts have produced some of the best fighters in Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo and so forth. Most guys that enroll in a traditional martial art can’t begin to understand how good or bad they are. At least through sporting events, one can understand their level of skill.

There’s a lot to be considered here (more than most people believe). You can drill all the “dangerous” techniques you want, but unless they’re put to use, you will not have the correct timing, distance, speed, etc... Worst still, they’re caught up in the whole forms, static postures, mystical powers routine. Sport martial artists, on the other hand, train with the same specifics of a set match. They are in essence, emulating their match to come.

SELF-DEFENSE WOES
Again, traditional MA’s are taught under the pretense that they are “combative” arts. This is simply not true, because they aren’t frequently used or tested in combat. Furthermore, their methods are taught under the impression that everyone engages in a “matchfight.” For example, they begin with: Your opponent throws a punch, you step back, low block, then kick here, then do this, do that, etc... Carl Cestari, an esteem self-defense instructor would laugh at this notion. How did this attacker get within arms reach? Where did he come from? Why is he fighting you, etc?... In all fairness, this sounds more like sport MA training where you learn to defend against certain techniques. Except most serious sport gyms don’t advertise self-defense.

CONCLUSION
We don’t live in a time or place where you get into martial arts fights. If you want to fight, the best place for that is the ring, octagon, cage, etc... Besides, 46 states in America allow for a concealed weapon and I’d be more cautious with whom I pick a fight. Street fighting afterall is illegal.

[El Luchador]

Re: Traditianal MA vs Sport MA

Originally posted by Great Sage
This post was inspired by something that was said in the Korean Arts forum regarding ITF vs WTF. What is better, sport MA’s or traditional MA’s? Personally, I feel that while traditional arts strive to be combative, they fail miserably and are less formidable than sport martial arts. Here are my reasons.

COMPETITION vs NON-COMPETITION
Most traditional arts don’t compete. They prefer to dwell in theory and practice. However, sport martial arts have produced some of the best fighters in Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo and so forth. Most guys that enroll in a traditional martial art can’t begin to understand how good or bad they are. At least through sporting events, one can understand their level of skill.

There’s a lot to be considered here (more than most people believe). You can drill all the “dangerous” techniques you want, but unless they’re put to use, you will not have the correct timing, distance, speed, etc... Worst still, they’re caught up in the whole forms, static postures, mystical powers routine. Sport martial artists, on the other hand, train with the same specifics of a set match. They are in essence, emulating their match to come.

SELF-DEFENSE WOES
Again, traditional MA’s are taught under the pretense that they are “combative” arts. This is simply not true, because they aren’t frequently used or tested in combat. Furthermore, their methods are taught under the impression that everyone engages in a “matchfight.” For example, they begin with: Your opponent throws a punch, you step back, low block, then kick here, then do this, do that, etc... Carl Cestari, an esteem self-defense instructor would laugh at this notion. How did this attacker get within arms reach? Where did he come from? Why is he fighting you, etc?... In all fairness, this sounds more like sport MA training where you learn to defend against certain techniques. Except most serious sport gyms don’t advertise self-defense.

CONCLUSION
We don’t live in a time or place where you get into martial arts fights. If you want to fight, the best place for that is the ring, octagon, cage, etc... Besides, 46 states in America allow for a concealed weapon and I’d be more cautious with whom I pick a fight. Street fighting afterall is illegal.

Words of a Poet
I Agree 150%

[michaelarsanis]

Great Sage,

I totally agree with you here on that one!! However, it seems you have done a 180 degree turn. None of the sport arts you mentioned here have all those devestating eyelid and nostril rips you said that will use in a real fight on the "Sport Judo" thread..


I quote you:
"......when let someone get in close enough, that could be the end of you... Let me in close enough and I'll rip your eyelids off, hook your nostrils while you try and throw me..."

You left out biting and eye gouging.

[Nick]

...

What an interesting topic... never seen anything like this before! Oh wait, yes I have. Hundreds of times.

Anyway, when trained correctly, TM's are very good for self defense. And by self defense, I mean someone suddenly steps in your face and tries to cheap shot you or grabs you and you surprise them with whatever technique, not, "let's step outside and not use dirty moves".

Later...

[ryanhall]

I agree with you here, Great Sage.

However, it seems you have done a 180 degree turn. None of the sport arts you mentioned here have all those devestating eyelid and nostril rips you said that will use in a real fight on the "Sport Judo" thread..

That doesn't mean that they don't work. They are outlawed from competition for a reason.

I wonder why the hell we have two kinds of idiots and only a few rational individuals in the martial arts? People either believe that all they need to do is gouge and kick to the groin or they think that all the nasty stuff doesn't work. What the hell is wrong with these people's brains? Is it so difficult to understand that 'cheating' can beat skill any day (and vice versa), but it is important to have skill--that you develop from many, many hours of training against a fully resisting opponent--in order to be able to cheat to the fullest?

[IPON]

Originally posted by ryanhall



Is it so difficult to understand that 'cheating' can beat skill any day (and vice versa

I would not even call it "cheating". There is not such thing as a "dirty" technique when it comes to your safety, anything that lets you walk away or live is just..well...smart. In the ring that is differnt

My rule of thumb is that you attack me you deserve what you get..I have no sympathy..nuff said

[IPON]

Great Sage

I agree 100% as well. and now I am depressed...

[ryanhall]

I would not even call it "cheating". There is not such thing as a "dirty" technique when it comes to your safety

I agree. I was attempting to come up with a way to express what I was saying in a way that would be more understandable to someone thinking in terms of sport.

[Thai Bri]

"Besides, 46 states in America allow for a concealed weapon and I’d be more cautious with whom I pick a fight."

But you won't need to defend yourself in these states, coz my friend Spunker says that an armed society is a polite society.

[michaelarsanis]

"I wonder why the hell we have two kinds of idiots and only a few rational individuals in the martial arts? People either believe that all they need to do is gouge and kick to the groin or they think that all the nasty stuff doesn't work. What the hell is wrong with these people's brains? Is it so difficult to understand that 'cheating' can beat skill any day (and vice versa), but it is important to have skill--that you develop from many, many hours of training against a fully resisting opponent--in order to be"

Its not that the cheatin doesn't work. Its that some people think its SO EASY to pull off. I'll just poke his eye and that'll be that.

[ryanhall]

Its that some people think its SO EASY to pull off. I'll just poke his eye and that'll be that.

It can be easy to do and it can be hard to do. It all depends on the situation. Gouging a good grappler when he has position won't get you anything except an all-expenses-paid trip to the local hospital. There's nothing that says being a conditioned combat athlete will do anything except enhance your ability to make use of the nasty stuff, but you do have to remember that you will perform the way you train. If you never train it, you'll never do it. It is true that many people say "I'll shed my sporting ways and get nasty when it counts," but it usually isn't true. Just train the Judo, wrestling, BJJ, whatever while working in the other stuff. When grappling, I always make a point of simulating headbutts and gouges, even if it doesn't gain me any sort of advantage during training. I know that landing 4 or 5 headbutts from in the guard (I'm in the other guy's guard) would certainly cause a significant amount of damage (if not KO) to the recipient. If I can put my hands on the face of my training partner while protecting my own face and keeping my base, I know that I could have gouged him pretty good.

By the way, you might (or might not) be surprised how easily you can get out of certain holds if you know how/when to get mean. Small joint manipulation is banned in competition for a reason. Naturally, trying to bend a finger won't do sh!t if you're in the middle of being G&P'ed or you're already so compromised that nothing can save you, but it can create opportunity that might not have existed without it. The same can be said for gouging, ripping, biting, etc.

Just my .02 cents. I think we agree more here than we disagree.

[michaelarsanis]

RYANHALL,

that is a very good post and I agree with most of it - except over the years my fellow grappling buddies have while sparring and caught in a bad spot joked with each other, about "oh yeah?" and feigned a "dirty" tactic.

The point is that I think most of us guys are well aware of playing dirty if we had to. EVERYONE on earth is sensitive to the eyes, throat, and groin. I know I can punch someone on the ground. I also know that if I throw someone I can kick them in the head too when they're down, and that while having someone in a pin - kesa Gatame - for example my opponent frequently accidentally rakes my face and that makes you well aware of your eyes being exposed. It also makes me think that I would turn my head away if that happened for real so as to protect my face. But that would be instinct anyway, just like blinking is an instinct. And I also know that THEIR face is vulnerable too. Much more because they are trapped there!

These are just things that most of us learn anyway. Anyone who has been in martial arts long enough has at least heard this stuff so often that we are aware of it. The human instinct to survive is very strong. If you feel like you are in a bad place, most of us WILL use dirty tactics. Its just natural.

Ryan, I was responding initially to Great Sage's bullshit comment. It is as follows: "... Let me in close enough and I'll rip your eyelids off, hook your nostrils while you try and throw me..."

Now tell me that isn't self absorbed stupidity!

[HuSanYan]

Re MA's vs Combat Sports.

Great Sage, I say combat sports are a bad portrayal of budo.

The UFC, NHB events etc. are thrown by, and geared toward, one style of grappling-wrestling (mainly).
These sport oriented forms of budo do not have multiple attacker capability, weapons defense capability etc. Things that disciplines like Karate, Aikijutsu, TJJ etc. regularly practice, Atemi to the throat, strikes to the eyes and things taught for the reality of survival, which are not allowed in their competitions.Yet due to the high profile nature of these televised events, people think that they can learn 'life enriching\life saving' skills by studying these forms of sport budo.

BJJ (or MMA), Brazilian Jiujitsu is not a traditional or even a modern Jujutsu system. The foundation is based on Kodokan Judo, not traditional Jujutsu, and it primary focus is on no-holds-barred tournaments, not self-defense. Representative systems would be Gracie Jiujitsu, and Machado Jiujitsu (needless to say on here).

This classification should not be viewed as a quality issue; it merely helps differentiate the historical roots of system and provides a simplistic idea of the focus of the system.
The real difference is in the focus and core objective of the systems. Gendai Jujutsu systems are focused on the development of strong self-defense skills appropriate to modern defensive situations, where as Brazilian Jiujitsu is focused on competitions.
So, there u have it, now I guess it's time for the Trolls *sigh*........

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
Great Sage,

I totally agree with you here on that one!! However, it seems you have done a 180 degree turn. None of the sport arts you mentioned here have all those devestating eyelid and nostril rips you said that will use in a real fight on the "Sport Judo" thread..


I quote you:
"......when let someone get in close enough, that could be the end of you... Let me in close enough and I'll rip your eyelids off, hook your nostrils while you try and throw me..."

You left out biting and eye gouging.

Michael,

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear... None of the sport martial arts I listed have the devastating techniques I mentioned because in a real fight, a person does what he must. That was my point. A good example is Mike Tyson. He’s a professional boxer. Mess with him and the last thing he’s gonna do is box with you. He’s more likely to bite your ear off or pound you in. Whatever works, works.

I’m well aware that aspects of traditional martial arts have their place. Anything and everything does if you can apply it. But for the most part, sport martial arts have produced better athletes because there’s more motivation, more goals and more purpose—the drive to win and become the best.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Re MA's vs Combat Sports.

Great Sage, I say combat sports are a bad portrayal of budo.

The UFC, NHB events etc. are thrown by, and geared toward, one style of grappling-wrestling (mainly).
These sport oriented forms of budo do not have multiple attacker capability, weapons defense capability etc. Things that disciplines like Karate, Aikijutsu, TJJ etc. regularly practice, Atemi to the throat, strikes to the eyes and things taught for the reality of survival, which are not allowed in their competitions.Yet due to the high profile nature of these televised events, people think that they can learn 'life enriching\life saving' skills by studying these forms of sport budo.

Hence, they are combat sports and NOT self-defense. People who believe combat sports are self-defense systems are misinformed. Not saying that guys in combat sports can’t defend themselves, but combat sports don’t claim to be self-defense. Most serious combat sport gyms don’t dwell in self-defense, and if they do, it’s taught as a seperate curriculum—survival training.

My point in this thread was to illustrate that the idea of self-defense is beyond martial arts alone, therefore in comparison, sport martial arts has gone further than traditional martial arts. Sport martial arts makes more sense, because there’s a real purpose with real results. You train hard and most of the time, you’ll win tournaments, bouts, etc... With traditional martial arts, you don’t know what you’re gonna get. You train in forms, sparring and “dangerous” techniques, then you hit the streets and get blown away. Or perhaps you beat one guy up only to get stabbed from behind... Sport arts don’t claim to have such answers, neither should they. That’s an entirely different beast.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
BJJ (or MMA), Brazilian Jiujitsu is not a traditional or even a modern Jujutsu system. The foundation is based on Kodokan Judo, not traditional Jujutsu, and it primary focus is on no-holds-barred tournaments, not self-defense. Representative systems would be Gracie Jiujitsu, and Machado Jiujitsu (needless to say on here).

The development, history and focus of Gracie Jiu Jitsu is open to debate. That’s not my point. Gracie Jiu Jitsu doesn’t claim to be the ultimate survival training... It’s a matchfighting art. Although, there are self-defense techniques that were specifically developed to help you get away. One example: my instructor told me to fetch a wooden knife. The first thing he did when I reached for the knife was dart out the room. I hadn’t even raised the weapon and he was gone, quick as lightning. That’s knife defense, the BJJ way.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
This classification should not be viewed as a quality issue; it merely helps differentiate the historical roots of system and provides a simplistic idea of the focus of the system.
The real difference is in the focus and core objective of the systems. Gendai Jujutsu systems are focused on the development of strong self-defense skills appropriate to modern defensive situations, where as Brazilian Jiujitsu is focused on competitions.
So, there u have it, now I guess it's time for the Trolls *sigh*........

Well, in all fairness Martial Arts became sport for a reason—there are less and less street fights that conincide with “matchfighting.” Things change, applications change. A style that teaches you forms, then techniques that can counter punches, kicks and takedowns lacks confrontational issues. How did the attacker get within punching range, and why? People just don’t go around and throw reverse punches.