Something all ground wrestlers should read

[kid_chocolate]

re

I agree that taking a fight to the ground might not be the best option most of the time. Who ever said that it was?

The most useful outcome of training grappling is that you will be unlikely to be put on the ground very easily by your opponent, while you will be able to put him there with relative ease. Once they are on the ground stomping, running etc all become possible.

[IPON]

also, i dont know what world you live in but the one im in doesnt have broken glass covering all floors. yes there is concrete, yes there is a minute possibility that there might be a broken bottle on the ground but ill take my chances with BJJ.

FQ (and everyone) - this issue of glass (and other stuff) in clubs and the street is definitely legitimate, particularly in cities and particularly in NYC and Philly (especially NYC). I am sure that it does not apply everywhere in the country nor is it in every club and sidewalk in NYC and Philly. But I can tell you in the club where I work people get drunk and drop glasses and bar backs are not necessarily that quick to clean it up. There was a girl who was taken to the hospital because she took off her shoes while dancing ... guess what a very bloody mess. I have been to other clubs in the city where this is the case, although I would say it's not the majority.

With that said, it can also work to your advantage if you are putting someone on their back - there is always 2 sides of the coin. The issue of glass, uneven/broken concrete, etc. is real, but it should be viewed as caution, take this into consideration before working your technique, look at your surrounding before you react. No more - no less.

I don't think it should be over emphasized or underemphasized. I think that the reason it is brought up is that there is this philosophy of going to the ground that is based on MMA fantasy fighting. I know some have said that "GJJ or MJJ" doesn't teach that philosophy which is probably correct. But the problem is there are alot of places that claim to teach BJJ with people that IMHO are not qualified to teach (maybe white or blue belt and some that have just watched videos). And there are students who only stay a few months and are "BJJ stylists". So this maybe obvious to true students on GJJ or MJJ but not everyone. Don't get me wrong, I have fought many times on the ground: TD+mount+G-N-P=KO. But I was never fully committed the ground that's the difference.

I went to Renzo's website and one of his students discussed and experience with multiple attacks. Basically, he was at house party, got in a fight with some guy over his girl, took the guy to the floor (I assumed mounted him) then he saw his friend run over to help. He choked the guy and said that he was lucky the friend was more concerned with reviving his friend than kicking his azz. This guy didn't indicate that he was changing his tactics he just relayed an experience. Again, this it's not totally an issue of right and wrong but considerations.

The take home should be the following:

1. Always be aware of your surroundings

2. Intentional commitment to the ground not a smart idea.

3. Standup is a better choice in SD and probably fighting, but if going to the ground do not fully commit, so you will have an escape in case of multiple opponents.

Anyway, No flame to anyone. I know grappling, but I do not study BJJ so these are just my opinions.

[S.Anucha]

most of these guys will bait you to throw that thai kick and get the single leg takedown EVERY time. and because you refuse to train in grappling you have no idea how much of a fish out of water you are.

man, listen, I know you were tired but did I say anywhere in my posts that i do not train in grappling and that it is useless? We, particularly in my style train exstensivley in grappling, the grappling skills taught to me are very very good. Thats really it, as for a leg takedown, that kind of takedown is as basic as they come in Muay Thai, we are also taught how to nuetralise a single leg takedown, how come you dont klnow this and you've trained in Muay thai....? are you sure the Muay thai school you were at was a good school, it seems most of the Muay thai students I speak with havnt really a clue what Muay thai has to offer in terms of grappling. I am skilled in standup grapple, you'd be surprised i can guarantee I am not an easy man to takedown! on theground is a different story as I am pretty much lost with ground grappling but I am not attacking ground grappling as i am fully aware I am f**ked if fighting a ground wrestler on the ground! I know that just read what i originally asked.

The guy who wrote those articles knows his shit.


....read the post dude, I am asking is it such a wise idea to use ground grappling in a self defense situation!

[Bjjexpertise@be]

What's the point of even posting this? You know all the replies are gunna be bias toward Bjj(even mine). It's like you're asking for an argument .

[IPON]

What's the point of even posting this? You know all the replies are gunna be bias toward Bjj(even mine). It's like you're asking for an argument .

Well everyone should not be bias but realistic about their style (whatever the style). I beleieve in JJJ (and it offshoots) I don't think any think will convert me. But at the same time I understand what flaws my style have as all styles have flaws. the point should not be to convert someone, just different ways of thinking, "did you consider this or that". And as long as someone isn't trolling shouldn't be a problem.


BTW - my post was unbiased.

[gracilva]

when the adrenaline is pumping and the fists are flying, you would'nt feel a piece of glass or a bit of gravel in your back, you can hardly feel being stabbed when shit goes down.
thats why this " the streets have to be clean and padded" talk is really starting to amuse me.

[FUH-Q]

when i was talking about your not training i was refering to your last post about BJJ not working in "the streets"; and as i remember you said that you did not train in BJJ.

and of my three muay thai teachers 2 were thai and the other an instructor under sirisute chai. i can tell you now that that single leg defense will NOT work against an experienced wrestler; if a good wrestler gets ahold of your leg you ARE going down. as i said before go find a dedicated grappler and work with him, if he wants to go to the ground he will get you.

[S.Anucha]

where'd i say BJJ doesnt work on the streets? I asked is it a wise idea to use ground grappling in self defense?

Mate, Thai person or not if what you got taught was basics of Muay Thai which I think that is what you have been taught because there is a lot more to it than what you may believe, then you wont exactly know much about it. Take that whatever way you want, I aint flaming and I aint looking a flame I couldnt be bothered trying to prove something over an internet forum as it stresses me out and I am getting ready for my trip to Thailand, you're just going to have to go a bit deeper than the old "ding ding" to know what Thai fighting is all about. I know Thai people and Thais are pretty good at letting you know what they feel you should know and many schools teach you how its done and ONLY done in a competitive fight which means half of the throws and takedowns in Muay Thai are illegal. I am not making this up, why would I, I know where Muay Thai is weak and I know where it is strong from my own muscle and sweat, grappler or not, wrestler or not I have been taught about foot trips, hip throws, how to step on your feet and use the pressure to knock you off balance or manipulate you, did you get taught any of that? I know neck takedowns how to neutralise and fall on top of a person using my knee to crush his sternum when he trys to catch my kick, man i have been taught and have sparred using these, they work. you do know there is only about 20 techniques used in Muay Thai where around 120 are in the Muay Boran I am taught?

Mate I dont want to go back down this "Thai grappling sucks" road, I dont, I have proved it to some HEAVIER MMA guys (2 guys) that its not so easy for them to simply chuck me like a rag doll, hell I have even shown Muay Thai guys how its actually done and thats using Muay Thai, I hope I dont come across as arrogant.

I respect pure grapplers and I respect whatever it is they practice.... the question is, is it a good idea to use ground grappling in a self defense situation...?

...reasons why you think it is or not.

Thats all dude

[Ha_ari]

I'm not going to jump into this debate too much, but I will say that if you want to learn how to survive on the street, train krav maga, b/c that is the entire point of the system: to ensure that if someone accosts you on the street, in a real-life encounter, you walk away and they don't.

I trained KM for a while, but had to switch to JKD/MT/BJJ b/c I moved, and I'm not here to opine on which is more effective.

Generally, as I've posted on before, the major difference between KM and other systems is not so much the techniques (though there are, of course, differences), but the mentality.

Read this thread and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=7922&highlight=good+first+art

I think training grappling is both useful and necessary for street-fighting, so long as one remembers to treat grappling as a survival tool: i.e, I sure as hell don't want to go to the ground, but if I do, I'm going to do what I can to get OFF of the ground ASAFP. When I grapple, I try to keep that in mind--is what I'm practicing helpful for enabling me to get myself out of danger, preferably by inflicting severe and debilitating pain on my opponent, and in so doing to get the hell up off of the ground and the hell up out of there?

KM teaches limited groundfighting, for this express purpose. We sure as hell want to avoid going to the ground, but if we go there, we'd better be ready to annihilate an assailant and get the hell up off of the ground ASAP. And I think grappling is important to achieiving that end.

Anyway, JMO.

[tekshow]

jeese. if people think sport BJJ is what it is all about then they are as ignorant as the practioners who think BJJ is good in every situation.


ever art has its limitations and strengths this is why cross training is so important. and i've used BJJ in a streetfight... it's what you want to pull out at a given time.. those are your tools...


just cause somethings in your muscle memory doesn't mean you should ignore common sense and go to the ground when a truck carrying thumbtacks just overturned and you've got to take on the PCP laced driver

[S.Anucha]

when the adrenaline is pumping and the fists are flying, you would'nt feel a piece of glass or a bit of gravel in your back, you can hardly feel being stabbed when shit goes down.
thats why this " the streets have to be clean and padded" talk is really starting to amuse me.

dude I may also add, now think about this, streets have what if's! competitve fights dont. Competitive fights have 2 guys who already know each others, or should at least know, tactics. one or the other or both will have a general idea of what the other guy is capable of doing and what he will do, why? because it is a compeitive arena where you get to know the stats of whoever it is you're gonna be fighting, maybe watching some previous fight of him before so thus you can build a strategy to fight him with.... there are no what ifs only counter and evasion.

In self defense (Matter of life or death) however, you know nothing about the guy it is you're fighting against, you have no idea what he is going to do, you dont even know if you are his 20th victim or if he really has a gun, knife or friends, you are totally at the mercy of "what if"

that is the difference.

[kid_chocolate]

re

it's what you want to pull out at a given time.. those are your tools...

Don't pull out your tool in a street fight. It will only make things worse.

[gracilva]

what i was trying to say is, if you get into a situation and you can manage to pull off an arm bar or a triangle but get a few stiches from glass or gravel, so be it.
a few stiches is nothing compared to what you could end up with if your opponent gets the better of you.

[FUH-Q]

sorry anucha, when i said your last post i meant to say your last thread.

what im trying to say is that while i feel fairly confident in my muay thai i know that there are many guys out there who either box, train muay thai or are just good brawlers. if i start trading punches and i get the feeling he is a good striker then im shooting in for the takedown. im not trying to say that the only thing im going to do is BJJ, but im saying im going to use it the first time i see and opening. while many people (especially those who would pick a fight) have some striking skills most do not have any ground training and have no idea what to do. a properly executed takedown is almost unstopable, especially if you add punching and kicking into the mix.

if you defend against the strike you leave yourself vulnerable to the takedown; however if you defend against the takedown you leave your face very open for the strike. what i mean is when your in a boxing/kicking stance it is very hard to sprawl or move quickly enough to keep from being taken down; your only defense is to throw a knee into their face, but you have to be lightning quick for that. if you take a wrestling stance to keep from being taken down then your face is left far in front of your body (which is very bad); however it does allow for a quick takedown if the other guy gets sloppy.

in the end you have to evaluate your situation and your oponent. if its a guy that heavily outways you then you better know how to move on your toes and not try to go to the ground, but if you find yourself boxing with a boxer than you better try the ground because as im sure you know it only takes one well placed shot and its lights out.

all that being said, if you keep your trainig one dimensional than you restrict your options and thats always bad. i train BJJ because with equaly matched opponents BJJ always wins a one on one fight, so to answer your question.....yes, i think BJJ is great for a street fight, if its used properly as an OPTION, not your only option.

[FUH-Q]

also, i live in america, land of the money crazed lawsuit happy lawyers (aka scum of the earth). if you beat the crap out of a guy with your legs and fists/elbows he can take you to court (even if he started it). here in america if the court finds out that you train a martial art than they can consider your hands a deadly weapon and put you in jail or make you pay that person money. the reasoning is that if you train than you should be able to control both yourself and the other guy (its crap and i hope it soon changes) and if the other guys lawyer can convince a judge or jury (notice i said convince and not prove) that you went too far than your in for a world of trouble.

with BJJ i can control and subdue a guy long enough to calm the situation (or put him to sleep if need be) until help arrives or he decides he doesent want to fight any more. an old teacher of mine used the expression "dividing his intentions"; it means that while the guy came into the fight with the intention of hurting you, he now only wants to make the pain stop. i can use BJJ to defend myself without leaving bruises and a bloody face to show in court.