Something all ground wrestlers should read

[S.Anucha]

i train BJJ because with equaly matched opponents BJJ always wins a one on one fight.

But dude, who have you fought? know what I mean. Are you getting this from watching Ultimate Fighting Championships? BJJ wins against an opponent who is clearly unversed in groundfighting, now I am not flaming or trolling but trying to break things down into reality. BJJ has not fought all groundfighting arts.

How many street fights have you had the pleasure of ending with your BJJ? be serious...... you know what I am getting at? And I dont mean to offend you but you have to ask yourself when you fight who is it you are fighting? if its friends then sure restrain them on the ground if its not friends and its people you have never met then dude do the right thing and use BJJ to get yourself back on your feet not to end the fight cos I can guarantee you take anyone down here in my home expect boots in the head or a hard object to come down on you, infact you could almost expect that standing up, but people tend to be more catious when your up and facing them!

I have done a wee bit of research and it seems in many states in USA choking someone out or breaking bones will land you in jail quicker than KO'ing someone with a strike of the fist (how do they know it was an elbow?)

dude if you feel that when you are about to fight someone and you think "he's better than me at fighting" then why are you fighting?

[FUH-Q]

"BJJ wins against an opponent who is clearly unversed in groundfighting"

this is what ive been trying to say the entire time.

"BJJ has not fought all groundfighting arts."

are you serious? what other groundfighting arts has BJJ not proven itself against?

" I can guarantee you take anyone down here in my home expect boots in the head or a hard object to come down on you, infact you could almost expect that standing up, but people tend to be more catious when your up and facing them!"

thats just a weak argument, if his budies are going to jump in their going to do it weather or not you go to the ground.

and im sorry to tell you that your research is false. restraining someone with one of the many controlling positions is in no way illegal. putting a guy to sleep leaves no marks or bruises (if done correctly ala rear naked choke) . also, breaking someones arm is a last resort tactic, breaking his arm would go against the whole reason behind going to the ground. the same could be said about punching him out; however it leaves a lot more bumps and bruises for him to go tell the police, and like i said if they find out you train a MA then you ARE going to court (unless you have lots of credible witnesses and the guys not buddy buddy w/ the cops).

and about the last thing you wrote (i cant seem to highlight it or id cut and paste it) you put something in parenthisis that i didnt write. what i did say was that if you find yourself punching and kicking with a good striker than go ahead and shoot in for the takedown. theres a saying that goes something like "never box with a boxer, never kick with a kicker and never wrestle with a wrestler"; what that means is if you find that your opponent is skilled in a certain range then move to another (but you would have to train those other ranges to do that) that he is not. many people limit themselves to only one range, and even one style for that matter, because they have either been convinced or are just naive that they can keep themselves and their opponent in that range.

ive said it before, go train with a dedicated wrestler and see if you can stay on your feet. if he is any good he will get you just about any time he wants (assuming he is allowed to strike too).

[jubaji]

"go train with a dedicated wrestler and see if you can stay on your feet. if he is any good he will get you just about any time he wants ).

I'll buy that

[S.Anucha]

"BJJ has not fought all groundfighting arts."

are you serious? what other groundfighting arts has BJJ not proven itself against?

thats just a weak argument, if his budies are going to jump in their going to do it weather or not you go to the ground.

Dude reply without flaming please. Thanx

some other ground and grappling fighting arts :

Burmese Naban, Turkish Pehlivan, Kuresh wrestling and not to mention the several different kinds of ground wrestling/submission to be found in India. Dude, the fact is that what you see in UFC is not everything that is availabe. Bruce Lee appeared in the 60's and along with him came the Chinese martial art phase, yeah? now everyone thought "I wanna peice of that" so everyone took a piece thinking they were invincible, then along came UFC! bam! everyone realised, everyone being the majority of the westernised world, that ground fighting and grappling was a neglected area of fighting.... bam! everyone is now jumping on the BJJ and gorundfighting/grappling train... think about it, long before UFC there has always been ground fighting in the places I speak of, long before the majority of westerners evn realised that grappling was a part of fighting there was always fighting carried out that way in other countries. Now isnt it possible that a hell of a lot of grappling systems are just maybe not so popular because they are unknown by the majority, I mean how many people heard of BJJ before UFC? know what i mean. I am an open minded guy and like to take roads by my own desire and I question almost everything. Its very clear UFC is a great way to test ones fighting ability but man dont fall into the "I know BJJ I am unbeatable" trap because mate there are some arts that are very much alive that are very similar but a little more aggressive that are just not out yet. Give it time, they will be, Phil Dunlap is doing a great Job of promoting Kachin systems and even some UFC fighters are beginning to learn some of the standup grappling Boran and Lethwei have to offer. It takes time man and it takes promotion but simply because its not present in UFC doesnt mean its useless!

Oh yeah, I'll be learning Naban soon and I cant wait!

I posted this before, all i can get is a clip from Naban http://www.afs.f2s.com/Keyhang.wmv

http://www.afs.f2s.com/JAWLOCK.wmv

thats only 2 methods but dont they look mighty familiar to something? only this kind of wrestling seems more like "dirty" fighting!

"...In the Kachin systems there really is not a concept of grappling only as grappling, it was viewed as just a part of fighting. The
grappling is very much about control. You always want enough control that when in a bad position you can not be hit and when in a good position you can fouling tactics such as biting and gouging are always taken into consideration simply because they are always an option and must be protected against and set up to be used..."


and as you said i should go wrestle with a good wrestler, I have done that with 2 people, ok not an entire nation, dont forget I am sorta inexperienced with competitive fights (only 4) so to wrestle some kind of champion would be silly, wouldnt you agree?

And you have turned this into some kind of arguement that wasnt intended.

BJJ is good, ok, but it aint the only form of ground grappling that works and if you didnt know that then look a bit deeper into things, maybe look past UFC huh? I hate to sound disrespectful but it does get kinda buggy when I am told to "go wreslte with someone who is a good wrestler" and that "he will take you down all the time", I mean i could say "then go standup grapple with a good standup grappler" eh? know what I mean, what makes you think I am totally unversed in standup grappling, and anyway I do know a few ground techniques, enough not to leave me totally lost, I just couldnt fight a pure ground fighter on the ground in a competitive match! so whats your arguement?

the thread is basicly asking is ground grappling such a wise thing to do in a street self defense situation, the thread question is not asking "is BJJ such a good fighting art?"

maybe it should be clearer, do you think that when you are in a fight, with complete strangers hell bent on causing maximum amount of pain and damage to your good looks, is taking the fight to the ground such a good idea, is it a good way to end a street self defense situation?

and if you think yes then please answer these questions, how many fights have you actually had, not silly punch ups with your mates but real horrible fights, and used ground fighting to sucessfully win and walk away from on the street?

I am being serious.

By the way respect, keep your debate on a friendly level and leave the flaming out of it. Makes it more interesting.

[S.Anucha]

FUH-Q :

"...many people limit themselves to only one range, and even one style for that matter, because they have either been convinced or are just naive that they can keep themselves and their opponent in that range..."

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Mate many people simply can not fight, full stop

I am not limited to one range, not at all and to think that simply because I am well trained in Muay Thai (Boran) then I am bad at grappling, dont be mistaken. honestly. I have been studying Thai fighting for coming on 7 years now, I have been around a fair bit, majority of Muay Thai practitioners really do not see past knees, elbows and kicking, that is the truth.

As for me being naive, hmm.... I totally disagree, I am fully aware of my ability at all ranges and fully aware that there are more ways of ground fighting and wrestling than having to chose BJJ or greco-roman, just because it is present in UFC means nothing in my opinion. You would agree I think. I am fed up saying that Thai fighting has many many Judo like grappling techniques and a very good and neglected way to neck wrestle. Anyone who is serious about Thai arts and has any thourough knoweldge would know that. Randy Courtour standup grapple is a combination of greco and Muay Thai.

Listen i aint dissin you or what you can do but calling me naive (if thats what you are doing) is very NAIVE, when i am asking what your experience is I am only trying to get a clearer picture of what circumstances you are refering to. Is it UFC and NHB or is it street selfdefense? know what i mean. I totally agree that fighting and knowing how to fight is important if you FIGHT! but if self defense is what you are looking then its maybe a better idea to really bring into consideration the risks involved with particular ranges that you may find yourself in during a self defense situation, in other words, maybe people learning selfdefense should be truthfully told without biased opinion the reality of what could and very often does happen when you are on the ground. Thats all, this is not an attack at ground fighting in general.

Now its dumb to watch clips of high school teens bashing each other and clips of people going to the ground because of lack of balance and what not, these usually are not "real" self defense situations but merely fights between a couple of kids or neighbours, boyfriends etc. Self defense = serious risks, thats what my question is aimed at.

cool?

[S.Anucha]

" I can guarantee you take anyone down here in my home expect boots in the head or a hard object to come down on you, infact you could almost expect that standing up, but people tend to be more catious when your up and facing them!"

thats just a weak argument, if his budies are going to jump in their going to do it weather or not you go to the ground.


Dude, read what I said, infact you could almost expect that standing up

I am not unaware of this.

[El Mastero]

I'm new to the forums but I've been reading alot of the topics on these boards for weeks and have learned much. My MA background consists of 3 different styles of TKD, some boxing and some albeit limited aka little knowledge of JKD (Mainly certain principles and tools).

I feel that we need to be very serious about our weaknesses and that there are certain situations and circumstances where we can not take advantage of the skills that we were trained. Every technique and skill in your arsenal will work wonders for what they were intended for and that may not necessarily traslate well to the street.

In TKD I've learned how to kick. Let me elaborate, I can kick very quickly and very hard. I have both speed and power. But I'm just an average TKDoist and not an "Olympic" trained athlete. Some of my training is wonderfull on the mat with other TKDoists but I would never perform any jump or spinning kicks in self-defense. Sure I may try it during sparring cause I know that there is little chance of me getting hurt if it doesn't connect but in self defense it's something that I would not likely do. For self defense I may use the basic kicks, front, side and round, with speed and power. Can I use my kicking techniques all the time? No. I can find myself in a SD situation while it's raining or snowing and the floor may be slippery. That would be the worst time to try to execute a kick when I may very well lose my balance.

My boxing techniques are also good. I have speed, power and wide range of punching techniques. Yet I am not "Olympic" or "Golden Glove" material. I just know how to execute some devistating combinations as well as some good footwork. Body shots are wonderfull but during cold weather in an SD situation my opponent may have a heavy coat that will lessen the impact of blows to any parts of his midsection. So it will only limit my punches to the only viable target, his face or head.

As far as groundfighting is concerned. I do sort of agree with the first few posts. Going to the ground would depend more on the situation and other factors. It's hard to shoot in when there's snow under your feet. It's hard to ground fight on streets full of glass (I live in NYC). And in my opinion the ground is the last place you would want to be in most street fights. However, I do feel that all MA's interested in SD should learn some ground fighting techniques. Because even if you try your darndest to stay on your feet there is always the chance that you may find yourself on the ground. In that case, you will only benefit from learning ground fighting inorder to defend yourself long enough to counter and primarily get back up.

In the end not all situations will be suitable for every technique in your arsenal but it doesn't mean that training in them is useless. I would stress being a well rounded MA'ist because every range of fighting has it's own merits. A well rounded fighter is better prepared for the street. I would love to learn some BJJ because it would only add to my existing knowledge and will only improve another range in my arsenal.

[FUH-Q]

ok, sorry if you thought i was flaming or attacking you personally, that wasnt my intent. so anyways, i think we're saying similar things now. i will accept that going to the ground isnt the only option in a fight but i think it is as good as standing. all those other groundfighting arts are still groundfighting. so if you accept those arts as valid then you have to accept BJJ as well.

also, i will reiterate a few points. as far as glass on the ground, the BJJer will be the one on top as he is proficiant in takedowns. and if his buddies are going to jump in their going to jump in regardless of weather or not you go to the ground. i understand you said that as well, but my question is why even bring that up if you admit they will jump in either way.

in the end what i am saying is that i will consider taking someone down as much as punching and kicking.

[S.Anucha]

the BJJer will be the one on top as he is proficiant in takedowns...

Dude correct me if I am wrong but isnt that where BJJ is weak? Is BJJ primarily a ground fighting system?

I was under the impression that BJJ is weak at standup grappling and takedowns but strong on the ground.

Maybe I am wrong, I aint sure.

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Anyway, the point that I am trying to make is... In time of self defense you dont really want to fight, because the risks are too great. If you end up in a brawl at the end of a night out the chances of it being a one on one are very very slim, thats reality and you must consider the worst case scenario or risk your health, my friend got a wonder kicking 2 months ago, nearlly blinded and pissing blood for weeks!

Now you are walking along with your girlfriend and then suddenly a few guys call names, you ignore them and walk on but they take that up the wrong way and then proceed to attack you, you suddenly find yourself being pulled and hit and what not, your girlfriend screaming and shit and you standing there keeping your balance because you aint a total newbie, right? ok so what do you do? do you shoot in and try for a submission or crack the closest guy to you and try for a runner?

...ok, now a different scenario as that above is as close to reality as you will get. You are walking along alone, some nut jumps out and demands your cash while, you see he hasnt got a weapon but your mind is telling that is strange and there must be something else, what do you do? shoot in for a takedown and submission or crack the guy and try for a runner? or **** cracking him and run? Now if he has a weapon which chances are he does then you run.

...now, you are in the first scenario I described, but your girlfriend has run to get help, you have found yourself on the ground overwhellmed by the power of multiple attacker (which is the way it is done in modern day) you feel the boots and stomps and you are litterally getting a hiding, what do you do? do you still try out your fantastic BJJ skills and go for a submission or do you use your fantastic BJJ skills to get you back on your feet and make for a runner?


see my point? its different when you think about the reality of it all.

But doormen, security officers etc see it differently, they have immediate backup, restraint is their main priority.

I am not neglecting the fact of groundfighting but I tend to pay more attention to my standup fighting skills than groundfighting, I know 3 ways to get back on my feet quickly and I know how to standup grapple well and use the weapons god gave me. Know what I mean?

In MMA competitions its a different story, you do need to have a good level of ground fighting ability or be extremely good at standup grapple. The differences between competition and street are big. You can say they aint, I could go on forever about the differences, well more like the risk differences. But it all boils down to two things, sportsmanship and thugish behaviour

[kid_chocolate]

re

I was under the impression that BJJ is weak at standup grappling and takedowns but strong on the ground.

Thats mainly correct. bjj is just a small part of judo and lacks a lot in standup grappling, especially for 2-3 times per week part time MAists.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

If you want sufficient ground technique so that you can survive there long enough for you to get out, why not do wrestling instead?

[GuardMaster]

Bjj for the street

This is how you utilize BJJ in the street:

#1 Most street confrontations will start of with some sort of argument like in a bar scene etc. I mean you are not living in iraq or something where you should be worried about being attacks walking down the street by thugs each evening

#2 Since you should have the common sense to see a threat escalating, you should talk your way out of it and walk away. If you can't talk your way out of it you should notice if your dealing with a single opponent or a group of people (i.e. friends)

#3 If it looks like its a single opponent going to ground and utilizing your bjj is quickest way to end the confrontation. You take it to submission, choke or bone breaking joint lock. You don't punch the guy and hope he'll throw a hook back and then shake hands with you and buy you a beer. More than likely he'll then pull out a knife and then my friend your DEAD. This is why stand up fighting is GARBAGE.

#4 If it looks like its a multiple opponent situation you confront the BIGGEST, yes the ALPHA male the BIG talking, SCARY looking, LEADER of the pack. You know why. Because groups of attackers usually form because they're cowards. And when their leader goes down... the team's morale goes down REAL quick.

#5 You teach this ALPHA male a lesson. Sensing a violent confrontation you may have to attack first. Self defense doesn't always mean waiting to be attacked. You may justify attacking first to a jury if you know you are in a bar scene and three skinheads are giving you a hard time, surrounding you, and holding beer bottles in their hands.

#6 You hurt the alpha male. Not with a punch. There's no such thing as a one punch knockout. Your not mike tyson and even he breaks his hand. You choke this guy unconscious, or you take him down and break his arm. His friends have two choices: One ATTACK you , or TWO help their friend. During this decision making process on their behalf you have enough time to "get away".

Even if the friends decide to attack you they just saw their LEADER, the tough alpha male GO DOWN HARD. And cowards , well they don't like to work on their own.

[IPON]

This is how you utilize BJJ in the street:

#1 Most street confrontations will start of with some sort of argument like in a bar scene etc. I mean you are not living in iraq or something where you should be worried about being attacks walking down the street by thugs each evening

Dude have you ever, I mean ever, been in a fight. It is amazing how people who have never been in a fight or injured anyone can consistantly speak as if they are an authority on the subject. First let's make a distinction of Street confontation: a fight vs mugging/attack - one is voluntary the other is not.

Dude some things you can't avoid, there is not always a lot a posturing and pushing. you bump into some, say the wrong thing-that quick and teeth are flying, yes here in the good OLE USA. and there are definately parts where you would think you are in IRAQ

#2-3 Stand up is garbage What??? No BJJ stylist would say that, what the hell are you talking about. The point is you don't know if it will be multiple or not. Friends can come just after the fight started. Yes, I get your technique, let's pause and survey hmmmmm, let's see what is the situation, let me put the varibles in my palm pilot to detrmine my strategy.

#4-6 You could have just saved yourslf the arthrits typing this crap, Alpha Male BS. Yes some groups share one heart. But this armchair concept of "THE LEADER" falls and everyone is paralyzed is BS you will get your ass soundly beaten or worse becuase of what you did to their friend. BTW they will help their friend by beating you off of him.

Go back to work and make your CAD you value so much. You just decided to take BJJ, didn't want to committ, and now are the authority on giving people information that will get them hurt. Do me a favor follow your own advice this weekend, if you are not in the ICU please let us all know how good your armchair SD theories are.

[Kiwi]

Gotta agree

quote...#6 You hurt the alpha male. Not with a punch. There's no such thing as a one punch knockout. Your not mike tyson and even he breaks his hand. You choke this guy unconscious, or you take him down and break his arm. His friends have two choices: One ATTACK you , or TWO help their friend. During this decision making process on their behalf you have enough time to "get away"....


Take down the leader?? You have got to be joking. While there may be a good number of cowards out there, there are also many people who are fiercely loyal to their friends (each and every one of my friends think THEY are the alpha male!).

Actually the only situation I know of where attacking the "leader" worked was when my friend got attcked by a group of about a dozen teenage punks. He busted the nose of one with a solid cross, spraying blood everywhere. He threw the next guy he could get his hands on through a store window and the rest scattered. If it wasn't as brutal as that, it may not have psyched out the rest of them.

Unfortunately he didn't know BJJ for that situation

Now don't get me wrong, I think BJJ is great, just don't tell me then best way to hammer in a nail is to use a pair of pliers.

I hope for your sake you never have to test your theories. Please rethink...it might save your life one day.

Kiwi

[FUH-Q]

ok, to say standup is garbage is absurd.

and yes you are wrong about BJJ not having good takedowns. if ur not being taught takedowns at your BJJ school then you should consider changing schools. the takedowns we learn are mostly free-style wrestling and judo throws. my instructor has actually worked in a few throws from the thai kneck control (granted it wont work against anyone who trains MT but it would work great in a bar fight). ALL BJJ tournys start standing up and whoever gets the takedowns has the advantage (though some guys do like to pull guard).

i actually love to mix my clinch from muay thai with my takedowns from BJJ; throwing a few knees to work the legs and then a push pull double leg or osaro gari (sp).

ok, in a multiple attacker situation you are getting your ass kicked unless your faster than all of your attackers. no matter how bad you are if three competant attackers want to hurt you then they are going to hurt you.



in your first situation im going to try and occupy the guys and tell my gf to run like hell. against multiple attackers no im not going to the ground on purpose but im willing to bet if i start getting in some good shots one of them will tackle me, so i feel like my ground training will help a LOT there. one option (im saying its an OPTION and it is a long shot) is to get one of them down and get a good lock on a joint and make it hurt real bad but not break; now i can threatin to break his arm/leg/kneck if they come near me while my gf goes for help.

as far as your second situation im gonna trade strike first and asses his standup skills (and yes you have time, its not a hard thing to find out if a guy can use his fists or not) and if i think he can or i see him reach for a weapon then yes i am shooting in. i feel like i can control a guy with a weapon better on the ground than standing.

as far as me on the ground getting kicked, then i think just about anyone is done; that being said im going to try and catch one of those boots and twist the crap out of it. it is VERY easy to apply a heal hook (basicly twisting a guys foot and breaking his ankle and/or tearing his ACL) when you have shoes and especially boots on. if i can do that i have effectively taken one guy out of the fight, however thats a big if (just like getting to your feet and striking with them). bottom line, if your up against two or more guys who have any skills then your in trouble regardless of what style you train.

obviously if you can talk your way out of a confrontation if you can, thats a given but we're talking about when you cant. im a slow white boy so running isnt an option for me.