Anaylasis of old beating BJJ article

[IPON]

When has bjj been beaten by non-bjj techniques?

Well one example is Kimura beating Helio. Other examples were by pure Judoka I posted on the BJJ/Judo thread http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html. I did not verify these I do assume that the information is correct since this is a very pro judo site (and while there is some BJJ bashing there is good information). The don frye part was a little puzzuling as I thought he just had a wrestling background??
And (take it for what its worth) Just my experience seeing/hearing of fights where BJJ has been beaten the 2 that standout in my mind are froma a pure Goju fighter and boxer beaten BJJ stylists. I don't want to get into a this vs that. I am merely stating that it is silly to say only BJJ can beat BJJ even if they are just referring to sport

Well the defenses shown were pathetic.

Just to be clear, I meant that the articles regarding BJJ defenses were pathetic becuase ultimately they are not just showing (untested) defense but putting down BJJ which ius the same thing that most TMAs complained about with the Gracies. IMHO that is a scenerio where I would agree put up or shut up.

[IPON]

There was no formal emphasis on ground mobility, rather an emphasis on applying HKD principles on the ground.

Yes, exactly as I have learned. That is why It makes no logical sense for Shaw to think that HKD could be in the same catagory with BJJ in the context of ground fighting. Perhaps he added groundfighting but I would say that is not traditional for HKD and again it is opposite in philosophy. I learned several locks siezures in HKD and from the ground perhaps one knee in the chest or abs with an arm lock but the goal is end quick, don't leave yourself vulnerable for additional attackers and get out.

The sad thing is all these half assed fantasy instructors who preach crap. and the genral public gets rapes eesentially becuase everything sounds good to the ignorant. I have been able to smell caca from the first meeting (the only exception I think was Renzo, but that was more my fault in retrospect)so I can say that I have quality instructors.

Oh Hell who cares anymore....Tomorrow I am going to open a tiger Shulman's gym and retire off the GROSS profits. 8 kids classes a day, 1 teen ager no adult. I will promise BB in 1 yr, GM in 3yrs and the 11 yr. old GM can start his/her own school (just give me 15% of the gross)

[Mr. Miyagi]

Black Belt is just a stupid magazine. I remember many times where they featured a Hapkido Black Belt, Han Woong Kim. Through photos, he would demonstrate several 'advanced' techniques.
The most unbelievable one involved techniques using a belt in which the skilled master somehow slipped behind his assailant and got the belt around his head and blindfolded him with it. The 'assailant' did a great job of acting and looking disoriented with the belt covering his eyes. I would have broken the master's nose while he was trying to get that belt over my eyes.

[GrdStorm]

TMA masters = sad mother lovers

Muay Thai does not have sprawls. Thats some MMA type defenses.

[GrdStorm]

of course BJJ can be beaten by other "arts." Hell I can beat Rickson Gracie if I got in a lucky shot and knocked him out. However 95% of the time it will not happen. Also Judokas have ground work. Essentially they have jiu jitsu in their game. And lets not get into the whole Judo vs BJJ, they are brother arts.

[CKD]

That bjj vs judo thing seemed to forget a lot of backrounds. For example Akira Shoji has done judo but before he made the step into mma he did bjj and stopped judo. Ruska and Zinoev had backrounds in other arts as well a bjj training. They seemed to highlight that they actually did judo once in there life and forget the amount of bjj training they had. kimura had quite a big weight advantage and age advantage over helio and Jorge Gracie had not done bjj when he fought the japanese guy.But even the Gracies say a lucky punch is all thats needed to defeat them if you have no bjj training. The best way to beat bjj is
1. Do BJJ
2. Stop reading Blackbelt magazine

[pstevens]

Like many misinformed martial artists, many of you generalize all Jiu Jitsu... Ever roll with a Danzan-Ryu JJ or Shinto-Ryu, how about Fusen-Ryu?... They employ many of the same transitions and techniques found in BJJ... And many of these guys will give you a good roll. In Shinto-Ryu, while in the back mount, they drop their heels straight down on your groin... I don't think that needs testing.

It's not really that BJJ is more effective, it's that in Brasil, the conditions of that country have allowed for this sort of testing ground... In the US, Vale Tudo type competitions are frowned upon, so ofcourse it would be harder to test your style. It's about the application of the techniques.

Think about it... If you were in place where competition permitted use of any lethal technique possible, you would either get very good at fighting or killed. If you survived, guys who only sparred lightly would be powder puffs. But that only means you've developed the mentality, tested the techniques that worked for you... If two people from two different places were doing "all-out" fighting, we get what we have today MMA and NHB... Styles don't matter... Fighters do.

[IPON]

The best way to beat bjj is
1. Do BJJ
2. Stop reading Blackbelt magazine

LOL. I definately agree about teh BB mag Hey like I said I did not verify the info.

But I have to say that this is where I get really frustrated with BJJ's and even with the In Action tapes. "BJJ Can beat anyone" "look at the BJJ beat a man over 100lbs heavier" next clip "well of course he is not doing well this man is stronger and 20lbs heavier" C'mon, stop the "BJJ is unbeatable" crap. A Judoka Ko'd a gracie a few weeks ago in PRIDE, so I guess that was just a lucky shot. But if the Gracie did the same thing there would be no questions...Gracie won by KO

I am really starting to believe that BJJ is turning into a cult second only to JKD (although at least there is proof that BJJ works). I mean damn a lose doesn't invalidate a style, but I get sick of the justifications. Helio took the fight and lost he admitted to being unconscious that he probably would have died if they did not stop the fight. The is the kind of Heart that he had. If Helio could go back in time and fight Kano I think he would win. But the foundation of BJJ is not from the Gracies, they did not invent this style they refined it, it is more like Brasilian Judo. Kimura even stated that after fighting Helio (but that does not minimize Helio's contribution as a MA legend). Why is that a big deal, I have no Idea, it's not. It is just understanding history, no more no less. But said around BJJ students and I would be labeled a heretic. If Helio stated the same thing noone would believe him

It used to irritate me when I would hear Roye whine about the time limts and the issue of weight difference in a no weight event. You did not hear anyone else complain. BJJ good style....yes. Unbeatable well ppl need to take their eyes out of the ring as well for that answer.

CKD I am not really directing this at you, just venting because I think it is so silly. "Only BJJ can beat BJJ....well unles it is a lucky punch" I am a grappler love Jujutsu BJJ is one ryu simple Judo is one ryu and they compliment each other. Which is one reason I intend to train in the style. the fusion of Fusen Ryu and judo is called Kosen Judo which is still practiced. PPL seem to think if it is popular its the best or that it revolutionized something not true. The part that BJJ added really wasn't ground fighting, but it was concept of hard training for fights. Now the trend is going back to standup becuse people are getting good on the ground and becuase of time limits.......this was part of the reason that Kano (unfortunatly) eliminated a lot of the ne waza in judo.......the matches were too long and the crowd was bored becuase they did not understand or appreciate the science of grappling

[Tom Yum]

Like many misinformed martial artists, many of you generalize all Jiu Jitsu... Ever roll with a Danzan-Ryu JJ or Shinto-Ryu, how about Fusen-Ryu?... They employ many of the same transitions and techniques found in BJJ... And many of these guys will give you a good roll. In Shinto-Ryu, while in the back mount, they drop their heels straight down on your groin... I don't think that needs testing.

Think about it... If you were in place where competition permitted use of any lethal technique possible, you would either get very good at fighting or killed. If you survived, guys who only sparred lightly would be powder puffs. But that only means you've developed the mentality, tested the techniques that worked for you... If two people from two different places were doing "all-out" fighting, we get what we have today MMA and NHB... Styles don't matter... Fighters do.

PS,

Thanks for introducing the other styles of JJ. Are there any well known schools that teach those styles?

About fighting all out, it takes a special kind of person to do that well - most of us here are not that guy; well maybe you are. If you do that for a long time, and get good at it - make as much money as possible doing it because those injuries add up.

I don't see myself facing Vanderlei Silva anytime soon bc I would get mowed down very quickly. I've taken lumps and got the p!ss beat out of me from really good fighters so I don't see myself turning pro anytime soon (unless Cus D'Amato comes back to life, wonders to my doorstep and takes me under his wing...lol) but I can stay focused under somewhat higher fight pressure and can fire back pretty hard which is ok for self-defense.

Light sparring isn't a bad thing IMO. You still get the real time speed, but you can focus more on timing and placement plus it doesn't burn you out physically and mentally like hard sparring. True that hard sparring tests your conditioning and toughness though.

I'd rather be a mediocre fighter today slowly improving under increasing training demands, than a 3rd degree black belt in style-X whose never broken a sweat or a nail for that matter and hasn't been on the receiving end of non-compliant punching and kicking - my 2 cents.

[Nick]

...

Could somoene get more info on the Goju fighter who beat a BJJ guy? I do Goju and would be very interested in learning more about it.

Later...

[GrdStorm]

"Like many misinformed martial artists, many of you generalize all Jiu Jitsu... Ever roll with a Danzan-Ryu JJ or Shinto-Ryu, how about Fusen-Ryu?... They employ many of the same transitions and techniques found in BJJ... And many of these guys will give you a good roll. In Shinto-Ryu, while in the back mount, they drop their heels straight down on your groin... I don't think that needs testing."

Whoa lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Now other "jiu jitsu" styles may emphasis ground work and have many of the same or the same attributes and techniques that BJJ has however that doesn't mean that these arts put out the same level of proficiency in a practitioner. I mean look at the hard facts, how many guys winning grappling tournaments are representing Danzan-Ryu JJ or whatever. Yes MOST of the techniques are the same in many jiu jitsu and judo styles however its the ammount of training and what kind of emphasis the practitioner is going for. BJJ guys train for street, NHB, Grappling tournaments. That means their game is going to be the best possible. These other jiu jitsu styles can't say the same. Thats why BJJ is superior to any other ground fighting art.

Thats not to say a Judo practitioner who is very good on the ground (because they put in the mat time) can't beat BJJ guys. Of course it happens all the time, however the probability of it happening aren't very large.

There is no end all be all styles, you have to cross train, however in my opinion it is fair to say BJJ is the superior GROUND FIGHTING art. However you need wrestling, judo, boxing, muay thai to complement your game.

[pstevens]

Whoa lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Now other "jiu jitsu" styles may emphasis ground work and have many of the same or the same attributes and techniques that BJJ has however that doesn't mean that these arts put out the same level of proficiency in a practitioner. I mean look at the hard facts, how many guys winning grappling tournaments are representing Danzan-Ryu JJ or whatever. Yes MOST of the techniques are the same in many jiu jitsu and judo styles however its the ammount of training and what kind of emphasis the practitioner is going for. BJJ guys train for street, NHB, Grappling tournaments. That means their game is going to be the best possible. These other jiu jitsu styles can't say the same. Thats why BJJ is superior to any other ground fighting art.

Thats not to say a Judo practitioner who is very good on the ground (because they put in the mat time) can't beat BJJ guys. Of course it happens all the time, however the probability of it happening aren't very large.

That's exactly my point. The reason BJJ is more effective than other JJ styles IS that it advocates more resistance training. That only means that it's the type of training they do, NOT necessarily the style... Comprende?

This logic is supported by the FACT that many martial arts that have gone the NHB route have somewhat caught up to BJJ – Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai... with some tweaking.

For example, if you're a JJJ stylist training for a NHB match, you will learn all there is to know about fighting NHB, not necessarily one style. You will also learn to develop YOUR best attributes and perhaps bring the best from your particular style. The same goes for any background in MA, including BJJ. Few people go into a NHB match with one fighting style anymore.

[CKD]

Wow I never knew what good conversation this thread would bring up! Yes few people go into NHB with one style. I can think of only Rickson, Nick Diaz and a few other people. Just wanted to mention something about what most arts lack and most people seem to not think off when it comes to mma. An overall strategy. For example in BJJ it is to get into a dominant position where you can do more to your opponent than he can do to you, this also evens it out for a weaker fighter, this strategy can only be realized by grappling with your opponent, it can be carried out best on the ground and also in the clinch but less effectively than if you are on the ground. Hence the preference of BJJ stylists of taking a fight to the ground. Many people in the first few UFC's just had a vague notion of pounding a person into defeat because not all arts have an overall strategy or do not emphasize it. You can see the strategys of mma fighters in there fights, bjj people try to take it to the ground, Vanderli Silva tries to exchange strikes and if his opponent is bigger than him he will get a dominant clinch, ussualy the neck clinch and weaken them there.

[Mr. Miyagi]

There have been lots of times bjj fighters have been beaten by non-bjj techniques. Francisco Bueno (KO'd by Igor V), Renzo (KO'd by Henderson), Ralph (KO'd by Gomi), Royler (KO'd by Sudo), Amaury Bitteti (KO'd by Hulk, a capoeira fighter of all things), Bustamante (KO'd by Henderson), Conan (KO'd by Mo Smith), to name a few. Maybe in the case of Royler, Sudo knew enough about bjj to avoid certain pitfalls but with the other cases, they all got knocked the fuc- out and their jiujitsu wasn't even an issue.
However, in all cases it was done by a person with real striking ability, never by a tkd, karate, or other traditional art fighter.
Oh yeah, also Laverne Clark's TKO of Fabiano Iha in their first meeting was pretty efficient too even though Iha took care of him in the second one. And Clark's style was almost pure western boxing with a tiny bit of wrestling and sprawling ability. And John Lewis getting the crap beat out of him by Kenny Monday and getting quickly KO'd by Jens Pulver and being the victim of a flying armbar by shooto fighter Rumina Sato showed bjj isn't everything too (Although Rickson questioned Lewis's black belt at the time because Lewis had been a blue belt with Rickson, then left him and got his black belt a year later from either Moreira or Pederneiras, can't remember).

[jubaji]

Black Belt is just a stupid magazine. I remember many times where they featured a Hapkido Black Belt, Han Woong Kim. Through photos, he would demonstrate several 'advanced' techniques.
The most unbelievable one involved techniques using a belt in which the skilled master somehow slipped behind his assailant and got the belt around his head and blindfolded him with it. The 'assailant' did a great job of acting and looking disoriented with the belt covering his eyes. I would have broken the master's nose while he was trying to get that belt over my eyes.

I love the 'photo-guides' in those mags! In photo one, some big, dumb-looking dude is standing about ten feet away cocking his fist. In photo two, he is already in mid-air, with a cartoon panic look on his face. In photo three, Instructor X has apparently just finished applying a convoluted lock of some kind and is mugging for the camera with a 'dramatic' expression picked up at Earnie's School of Akshun Moovy Aktin'.