It's Ironic... BJJ vs Striking

[Tom Yum]

It sounds to me like you had a disagreement with a BJJ bluebelt and you're really upset about it.

I'd say you're even blowing it (whatever it is) out of proportion and are bordering obsession.

This is not the first post that you've dissed BJJ.

[CKD]

You've missed the entire point. The point is that BJJ gets beat just like everyone else. That's why they've had to learn striking to get back into the game. Your argument is basically supporting my point.

You seem to imply that just because one does BJJ, he's unbeatable... That couldn't be further from the truth. BJJ doesn't make you unbeatable, you do.

Again, if BJJ is the X FACTOR, then WHY is it that Dan Hendersen can KO Renzo who has years of BJJ knowledge compared to Dan?

How does Sakuraba defeat Royce, having never studied BJJ?

These people haven't studied BJJ all their lives, yet they won against the very founders of BJJ... So how is my logic flawed? Please explain...

The fact that BJJ has beaten people is not at question... If BJJ is the determining factor in a fight, then the person with more BJJ experience should always win... That isn't true at all. Therefore, your point is illogical and a farse.

Renzo got ko'd because Henderson knew bjj and devoloped a counter to the strategies. Tell me if Henderson was a pure wrestler at that point do you think he would have won? Probaly not. Sakuraba has studied BJJ. Still you have yet to provide a reason why my arguments are wrong down below. You just said they were wrong. You just go off and try to change the subject. Now please tell why they are wrong or stop posting. My point is not farse I am American.

[radicus]

Man I so totaly agree with pstevens. I am a black belt in bjj and once I was attacked on da st33t by a grandma who was a Kung Fu experts. I tried going for a takedown, but she just side steped and poked me in the eyes. Then she proceeded to use her dim mark on me and I woke up 2 days later in a hospital.

Dude nobody is making you take bjj, if you don't think it is usefull don't take.

[IPON]

I have a question for everyone ....why is it soo difficult to explore a question without being sensitive? the answer is true false or somewhere inbetween but it should not impact on your ability as a MA. I think it is a valid question that's posed:

1. PPL should realize there is a clear difference in sport and fighting
2. If BJJ is the ultamite style why do they need to cross train for Kicking and puinching?
3. How does someone who may be considered a white and at best a blue belt beat not only BJJ BB, but BBs that have recieved the most pure and authentic instruction?

I don't iunderstand why these items just cannot be discussed. The reality is that BJJ was touted are the ultimate style by Riorion. It has been stated that only BJJ can beat BJJ. The Gracies have been unbeaten for 65yrs (I have asked this repeatedly for somone to explain how this is posible and noone does). The reality is that what you have is a very solid system that had great marketing and ppl now saying well....."hey you guys are really not invincible", the issue is not age or athleticism it is just simply no style or person is unbeatable. Adding techniques from other style to suppliment shows that the style will not be static which is good, but obviously shows that the style was not complete. OK now that's answered. Easy...on to the next topic.

[CKD]

I have a question for everyone ....why is it soo difficult to explore a question without being sensitive? the answer is true false or somewhere inbetween but it should not impact on your ability as a MA. I think it is a valid question that's posed:

1. PPL should realize there is a clear difference in sport and fighting
2. If BJJ is the ultamite style why do they need to cross train for Kicking and puinching?
3. How does someone who may be considered a white and at best a blue belt beat not only BJJ BB, but BBs that have recieved the most pure and authentic instruction?

I don't iunderstand why these items just cannot be discussed. The reality is that BJJ was touted are the ultimate style by Riorion. It has been stated that only BJJ can beat BJJ. The Gracies have been unbeaten for 65yrs (I have asked this repeatedly for somone to explain how this is posible and noone does). The reality is that what you have is a very solid system that had great marketing and ppl now and staying well.....hey you guys are really not invincible, the issue is not age or athleticism it is just simply no style pr person is unbeatable. Adding techniques from other style to suppliment shows that the style will not be static which is good, but obviously shows that the style was not complete. OK now that's asnswered easy...next topic.

O.K that was interesting. I think we all know that BJJ is not invincible. BJJ is not the ultimate style. It has basic striking techniques but they are not emphasized and at some schools not even trained.

[IPON]

In a real fight, the stronger, better conditioned and more athletic individual usually wins. Size helps too.

I am not sure I totally agree with this, look at Sean Alvarez (A Renzo Gracie BB) his 2 losses:

1. Cabbage (TKO - 1:46)
2 Oleg Taktarov (KO - 0:52)

Both do not study BJJ. Cabbage outweighs Sean by about 50lbs and is sloppy bastard (that can punch hard) but KO'd Sean who is rock chiseled. Oleg gave up about 30lbs and KO'd Sean as well.

A REAL fight does not (Or should not) last that long. But the problem with your argument is you are confusing points:

1. grappling sport
2. combat sport/NHB
3. fighting all out life/death

Also look at Jones vs Ruiz. Jones the text book example of a boxer, but in a real fight who is to say which boxer would win. I doubt Jones would win, but “real fights” do not last 12 rounds. You also seem to think a real fight stays in the style vs style. PPL pick things up and use weapons there are truly to many variables to be concrete about the deciding factor. We have stats on sporting events not actual fights. Don’t get me wrong I agree with being physically fit, I am just stating it is a false assumption to think all “real fights will be won by virtue of conditioning”

All grappling styles are equalizers for size. The goal for all is to have the opponent on the ground, however each style has a philosophy about obtaining that goal. I would say if one cannot use the techniques effectively you cannot blame the style. The burden of comprehension and proficiency is the responsibility of the individual. This is the reason I say MA in general and grappling MAs (specifically) are not really for everyone.

Ever been to Brasil? Gangs, or hoodlums as they call them there, hang out in numbers... The last thing you want to do is grapple with 5 armed assailants. As I've said, Sport BJJ isn't the problem... The problem is that BJJ is getting over flooded with good and bad athletes.

While I understand your point about one on one vs Multiple attackers you stated that in another thread and I would still maintain that just because you are not participating in a combat sport does not mean you cannot use the techniques in your own defense. That would hold true for BJJ or any other MA. The problem is not good/bad athletes it is a human problem. Simply put alot of people don't have heart for real situations. A match is a match...period. Many people think they are fighters until they get their jaw cracked and they realize it is not just a game. Reality is different than the perception of fighting and all MAs have this problem but I definitely think it is less common in grappling styles.

my 2 cents

[IPON]

O.K that was interesting. I think we all know that BJJ is not invincible. BJJ is not the ultimate style. It has basic striking techniques but they are not emphasized and at some schools not even trained.

I was not trying to be sarcastic or redundent. But the reality is a lot don't understand BJJ is not unbeatable or the ultimate style (and I don't mean for the individual). Royce is studying HKD, that does not mean HKD is better than BJJ. BJJ will always be his foundation. The striking techniques are very basic, that also holds true for some other Jujutsu ryu, so it is not surprising. Different styles just have different phiosophy regarding fighting, not right or wrong.

[CKD]

I was not trying to be sarcastic or redundent. But the reality is a lot don't understand BJJ is not unbeatable or the ultimate style (and I don't mean for the individual). Royce is studying HKD, that does not mean HKD is better than BJJ. BJJ will always be his foundation. The striking techniques are very basic, that also holds true for some other Jujutsu ryu, so it is not surprising. Different styles just have different phiosophy regarding fighting, not right or wrong.

I know you were not trying to be sarcastic or redundent. Neither was I. Your post was interesting.

[shasan]

what?? still???

I'm away from the board for a year, and people are still arguing about the same sh**... gotta love it

[pstevens]

Renzo got ko'd because Henderson knew bjj and devoloped a counter to the strategies. Tell me if Henderson was a pure wrestler at that point do you think he would have won? Probaly not. Sakuraba has studied BJJ. Still you have yet to provide a reason why my arguments are wrong down below. You just said they were wrong. You just go off and try to change the subject. Now please tell why they are wrong or stop posting. My point is not farse I am American.

So Dan Henderson, who's done BJJ for a short time defeated Renzo who's been doing it all his life. At what point did BJJ make a difference? You said BJJ was the core of MMA... So in that regard, the person who has more BJJ experience should always win. That didn't happen. How is it that Dan Henderson's limited BJJ experience can overcome a master BJJ like Renzo?

That's easy... BJJ didn't matter in the fight. Henderson was just the better fighter, both physically and mentally. He took it to Renzo and BJJ had nothing to do with it.

You're an American... So what? So am I... If this is what it's come down to then it's pretty pathetic.

[Thai Bri]

How did Dan go on against BJJ before he'd studied it?

I know the answer, I just want to hear you talk your way around it..........

[CKD]

So Dan Henderson, who's done BJJ for a short time defeated Renzo who's been doing it all his life. At what point did BJJ make a difference? You said BJJ was the core of MMA... So in that regard, the person who has more BJJ experience should always win. That didn't happen. How is it that Dan Henderson's limited BJJ experience can overcome a master BJJ like Renzo?

That's easy... BJJ didn't matter in the fight. Henderson was just the better fighter, both physically and mentally. He took it to Renzo and BJJ had nothing to do with it.

You're an American... So what? So am I... If this is what it's come down to then it's pretty pathetic.

He studied the bjj game plan and turned it around. Dan studying a little BJJ? That guys studied it like a maniac like evryone else. Even though fighters are mostly classified as Boxers or wrestlers all of them do loads of jits. If Henderson did not know about BJJ then he would have no clue on what to expect. Wrestlers study BJJ to avoid submissions and so do strikers along with to defend against grapping attacks. I know you don't like it but get used to it.

[CKD]

How did Dan go on against BJJ before he'd studied it?

I know the answer, I just want to hear you talk your way around it..........

He didn't. He studied BJJ and ground arts before he made the break into mma.

[pstevens]

He studied the bjj game plan and turned it around. Dan studying a little BJJ? That guys studied it like a maniac like evryone else. Even though fighters are mostly classified as Boxers or wrestlers all of them do loads of jits. If Henderson did not know about BJJ then he would have no clue on what to expect. Wrestlers study BJJ to avoid submissions and so do strikers along with to defend against grapping attacks. I know you don't like it but get used to it.

You don't think the Gracies studied other arts in order to beat them? You've proven my point. A guy like Dan studies BJJ in order to defeat a BJJ master and YOU say BJJ was the key. A guy like Royce studies boxing, Muay Thai so that he knows how to defeat strikers and you say BJJ is the key. You see the illogic here?...

If we're to follow this logic... Then the BJJ guy with more BJJ experience should NEVER lose. You haven't proven this point yet.

So far what you've proven is that the Gracies studied striking arts to become better fighters. The striker/wrestlers learn a bit of BJJ to understand the ground game. BUT, the striker/wrestlers have defeated Gracies and BJJ guys with limited knowledge of BJJ. Which means that the difference has been their striking/wrestling abilities. Hence, your argument that BJJ is the core of MMA is incorrect. The core of MMA is exactly that... Mixing all the arts to create a better YOU, a better fighter.

[CKD]

You don't think the Gracies studied other arts in order to beat them? You've proven my point. A guy like Dan studies BJJ in order to defeat a BJJ master and YOU say BJJ was the key. A guy like Royce studies boxing, Muay Thai so that he knows how to defeat strikers and you say BJJ is the key. You see the illogic here?...

If we're to follow this logic... Then the BJJ guy with more BJJ experience should NEVER lose. You haven't proven this point yet.

So far what you've proven is that the Gracies studied striking arts to become better fighters. The striker/wrestlers learn a bit of BJJ to understand the ground game. BUT, the striker/wrestlers have defeated Gracies and BJJ guys with limited knowledge of BJJ. Which means that the difference has been their striking/wrestling abilities. Hence, your argument that BJJ is the core of MMA is incorrect. The core of MMA is exactly that... Mixing all the arts to create a better YOU, a better fighter.

In the beginning the Gracies did not crosstrain. They relied on bjj. I said BJJ is the BASIS of mma fighting. Everyone studies it and needs it so they do not get caught by suprise. For striking arts people do different things like boxing and kickboxing and for takedowns arts like wrestling, sambo, and judo but all study BJJ groundfighting and strategy. But there is more to mma. If a person knows a load of BJJ even if its a bit less than the other person but is better at everything else than he can win. See the logic? If Dan had no clue about BJJ's strategy and technique do you think he would have won? Probaly not. He would not know defenses to standing subs and might be taken to the ground if he didn't know that was Renzo's strategy. I never said BJJ is invicible. You just seem to like making attacks on bjj. Funny thing is when you are proved wrong you try to change the subject. Here is my advice to you.
1.Stop lying about doing BJJ.
2.Go learn bjj.
3.Stop blaiming your lost streetfights on arts you never did.