BJJ Descrepancy...

[pstevens]

BJJ Descrepancy...

If Helio Gracie created Brasilian Jujitsu, then why is it essentially the same as Carlos Gracie's Jujitsu? I mean if Helio, being the sick weakling that he was, created different leverage techniques, wouldn't his style be totally different from his brothers? But as it stands, ALL BJJ techniques are pretty similar except for minor changes... This leads me to believe that Helio didn't create anything, except for tweaking minor things here and there to suit his own needs, just as any BJJ person does.

This also leads me to believe that Maeda taught most of the techniques used in BJJ and the Gracies merely elaborated on some of the techniques.

[IPON]

Helio Gracie

In the early 1900's, a Japanese jiu-jitsu instructor by the name of Esai Maeda went to the state of Para in Northern Brazil. There he befriended Gastao Gracie, a influential businessman, who helped the Japanese get established. To show his gratitude, Maeda, also known as "Count Koma," offered to teach the traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu to Gastao's oldest son, Carlos.

The youngest son of Gastao and Cesalina Gracie's eight children, Helio was always a very physically frail child. He would run up a flight of stairs and have fainting spells. Nobody could figure out why. So, after completing second grade, he convinced his mother that he shouldn't go to school any more.

When the family experienced some financial hardships following their move to Rio, some of the children were scattered to live with other relatives. Helio was sent to live with some aunts and through these family contacts, he found work as a coxman for a popular local rowing team, eventually moving into the team dorms. His indomitable spirit, great sense of humor and tireless aptitude to drive people nuts, earned him the nickname of "Caxinguele," which means "squirrel." He raised hell!

After a couple of years, when he was about 14, he moved in with his older brothers who lived and taught jiu-jitsu in a house in Botafogo, a borough of Rio de Janeiro. He would spend the next few years limited to only watching his brothers teach, especially Carlos, since doctors had recommended that they keep Helio away from any physical activity.

One day when he was 16 years old, a student showed up for class and Carlos was not around. Helio, who had memorized all the moves and words of his older brother, offered to start the class. When the class was over, Carlos showed up very apologetic for his delay. The student answered, "No problem. I enjoyed the class with Helio very much and, if you don't mind, I'd like to continue with him." Carlos agreed and Helio became an instructor.

He soon realized that some of the techniques he had memorized from watching Carlos teach were not very easy for him to execute. He then started to adapt those moves to his frail body's abilities, improving the leverage in the execution of some of those techniques. He dared to break away from the traditional jiu-jitsu his brothers had learned and were teaching, and through trial and error, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born.

Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko. and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!

Helio, the first sports hero in Brazilian history, also challenged boxing icons Primo Carnera, Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles. They all declined.

Outside of the ring, always looking for a challenge, he enjoyed breaking wild horses and bulls. In an event worthy of a Hollywood movie, he once jumped into shark infested waters in the Atlantic Ocean to save a man's life which earned him a medal of honor.

Helio's relentless contribution to the perfection of jiu-jitsu techniques, his philosophy on life and his unique teaching methodology have been an example for his children and his students worldwide. These are the pillars on which the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy was built.

[IPON]

I always wondered how anyone could be competent as a teacher if they only observed classes. Not even practicing on thier own, that part is missing I geuss assumed. The founder of Hapkido was also alleged to only "watch" classes but he clearly practiced and trained in JJ.

Also, what exactly was his medical condition that made him so fragile or was that made up for his family!?!? Helio is definately not a fragile guy even at his current age.

[wardancer]

Helio did not create BJJ.
Carlos opened the first JJ Club in 1925. Helio started JJ from carlos dojo at the beginning. Maeda would never directly taught Helio (he was a sickly kid).
The rest is all political rivalry within the Gracie Clan.
What amazes me the most was that Maeda taught no more that 4 years the gracie brothers.
To thing about it, now i start to suspect some Luta Livre moves were incorporated in the BJJ curriculum.
However, I still admire Helio for his contribution to BJJ developement.
He is still an important figure in the Brazilian MA cirles as I have seen some pictures of Helio being present at the latest MECCA night (most popular Brazilian Vale Tudo Tournamet).

[CKD]

Helio had fainting spells and every time he walked up the stairs he fainted. It was so bad he couldn't go to school. It probaly got better as he got older. I believe Carlos trained at the Maeda academy all the time so he might have learned a lot. Besides that wasn't luta livre created after BJJ? Anyways there are a lot of people that have trained only under Carlos and still do the same thing. But what I find interesting is in many Japanese judoist documentaries including Kimuras is that they called Helio a judo practicioner. They never said a thing about him creating anything new. Neither did many other judoka that visited the Gracie Academy before the boom. I think Gene Simco puts it perfectly in his article http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml But what I find most interesting is that Carlos was not Maedas only student. There was another who recieved a blackbelt from him and I found out his students do fine in the Mundials and the art is identical to bjj. Yet they have claimed to changed nothing and have never learned under the Gracies.

[IPON]

But what I find interesting is in many Japanese judoist documentaries including Kimuras is that they called Helio a judo practicioner. They never said a thing about him creating anything new.

Yes, this was my understanding as well. That Kimura after the first encounetr referred to Helio as a old style Judoka

Carlos was not Maedas only student. There was another who recieved a blackbelt from him and I found out his students do fine in the Mundials and the art is identical to bjj. Yet they have claimed to changed nothing and have never learned under the Gracies.

I knew that Maeda trained others in Brasil, but I didn't have the specifics until another post you created and I would agree it is Brasilian Judo not JuJutsu. It's funny, Renzo states in his book that helio "Took out all the dangerous techniques of JJ" which mirrors what kano did (so which came first the chicken or the egg). But, my point is that paragraph is the very reason it is not JJ....also why Kano realized he had to rename his style to Ju-do as it was no longer Ju-Jiutsu.


Now this leaves me with some questions:

1. Did Carlos in fact recieve a BB
2. I find it curious noone knows how long Carlos actually trained (2 or 3 or 4 yrs)
3. If he did recieve thd BB in say 3 yrs. why is the ranking so different in BJJ, that it would take on average 10years for a BB
4. Did that other Judo master ever challenge or fight with the Gracies or students. If so what was the outcome and do you have a link.
5. I hate keep raising this point. But can anyone explain "Gracie Challange 70yrs undefeated ". The history does not add up

[IPON]

But what I find interesting is in many Japanese judoist documentaries including Kimuras is that they called Helio a judo practicioner. They never said a thing about him creating anything new.

Yes, this was my understanding as well. That Kimura after the first encounetr referred to Helio as a old style Judoka

Carlos was not Maedas only student. There was another who recieved a blackbelt from him and I found out his students do fine in the Mundials and the art is identical to bjj. Yet they have claimed to changed nothing and have never learned under the Gracies.

I knew that Maeda trained others in Brasil, but I didn't have the specifics until another post you created and I would agree it is Brasilian Judo not JuJutsu. It's funny, Renzo states in his book that helio "Took out all the dangerous techniques of JJ" which mirrors what kano did (so which came first the chicken or the egg). But, my point is that paragraph is the very reason it is not JJ....also why Kano realized he had to rename his style to Ju-do as it was no longer Ju-Jujutsu.


Now this leaves me with some questions:

1. Did Carlos in fact recieve a BB
2. I find it curious noone knows how long Carlos actually trained (2 or 3 or 4 yrs)
3. If he did recieve thd BB in say 3 yrs. why is the ranking so different in BJJ, that it would take on average 10years for a BB
4. Did that other Judo master ever challenge or fight with the Gracies or students. If so what was the outcome and do you have a link.
5. I hate keep raising this point. But can anyone explain "Gracie Challange 70yrs undefeated ". The history does not add up

[IPON]

But what I find interesting is in many Japanese judoist documentaries including Kimuras is that they called Helio a judo practicioner. They never said a thing about him creating anything new.

Yes, this was my understanding as well. That Kimura after the first encounetr referred to Helio as a old style Judoka

Carlos was not Maedas only student. There was another who recieved a blackbelt from him and I found out his students do fine in the Mundials and the art is identical to bjj. Yet they have claimed to changed nothing and have never learned under the Gracies.

I knew that Maeda trained others in Brasil, but I didn't have the specifics until another post you created and I would agree it is Brasilian Judo not JuJutsu. It's funny, Renzo states in his book that helio "Took out all the dangerous techniques of JJ" which mirrors what kano did (so which came first the chicken or the egg). But, my point is that paragraph is the very reason it is not JJ....also why Kano realized he had to rename his style to Ju-do as it was no longer Ju-jutsu.


Now this leaves me with some questions:

1. Did Carlos in fact recieve a BB
2. I find it curious noone knows how long Carlos actually trained (2 or 3 or 4 yrs)
3. If he did recieve thd BB in say 3 yrs. why is the ranking so different in BJJ, that it would take on average 10years for a BB
4. Did that other Judo master ever challenge or fight with the Gracies or students. If so what was the outcome and do you have a link.
5. I hate keep raising this point. But can anyone explain "Gracie Challange 70yrs undefeated ". The history does not add up

[CKD]

Now this leaves me with some questions:

1. Did Carlos in fact recieve a BB
2. I find it curious noone knows how long Carlos actually trained (2 or 3 or 4 yrs)
3. If he did recieve thd BB in say 3 yrs. why is the ranking so different in BJJ, that it would take on average 10years for a BB
4. Did that other Judo master ever challenge or fight with the Gracies or students. If so what was the outcome and do you have a link.
5. I hate keep raising this point. But can anyone explain "Gracie Challange 70yrs undefeated ". The history does not add up

Not sure if Carlos got a blackbelt. But the other student of Maeda was something luiz. But he never challenged the Gracies and I am not sure if he participated in challenge matches. I think the 70 yrs started right after Helio fought Kimura. Either that or Kimura was basically BJJ because it was old style judo Man I am good. Rorion watch out there is a new top dog in town.

[IPON]

I think the 70 yrs started right after Helio fought Kimura

Yes, that is the problem with the Gracie math. The fight occured cira 1951, so 70 years would be the the year 2021. At the start of the UFC 1994 the Gracie's claimed over 65 yrs unbeaten, which would mean they were undefeated from 1929 - 1994 (or to present so about 75 years). I believe that the first challenge match was announced in the 1940s (I could be wrong too lazy to look right now).

http://bjj.org/interviews/kimura/

[J Rockwell]

However it started, whenever it started, I'm glad it was started, and I'm glad it's evolved through the years so that I am able to train it in its current format. It has taught me more about life and about myself than just about any other activity - and that includes other martial art styles which I've trained. A big "thank you" to Kano, Maeda, the Gracies, my instructors, and everyone else that has brought BJJ, Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Judo, whatever the heck you want to call it, to the point where it is today!

Jeff

[wardancer]

3. If he did recieve thd BB in say 3 yrs. why is the ranking so different in BJJ, that it would take on average 10years for a BB.

I think the ranking back then was well different compare to today standards.
I am not to sure if he got graded BB afterall. But I think a 'live-in' student with no distraction (like work, mortgage etc..) could make it BB in BJJ in 3 years. Most of the guys I know train twice a week max..

But an exemple I can think of is Kancho (I think that is his name) that took over the Kyokushin Karate leadership role after the death of this particular Karate style after the death of Mas Oyama (the founder). He joined Mas Oyama Karate Club (at the Hombu Dojo meaning the top club) and got his BB in 3 years and went a few years in winning the Kyokushin Karate events. The guy was gifted and very good in competition Kyokushin Karate (KO rules). He was also one a few who suceeded in the 100 Kumite challenge). Mas Oyama put him as his legal sucessor in his Karate leader of his style. Such legal document did not stop envouis senseis to 'break away' because of unhapiness with such decision.

Nowdays, in BJJ instructors are very conservative in promoting students but I think it has to do a lot more with the importance of BJJ competition.

A BJJ instructor will wait many years before promoting a student because if a student get promoted too early and get defeated at an open BJJ tournanment for exemple, it will badly reflect on his team.

The BJJ competition being very tough in Brazil, I am not surprise to hear BJJ dudes waiting a few more years than your average MA.

Another surprise I had in BJJ graduation in my country was other BJJ instructors from other clubs are invited to view/witness the grading and give their opinion (to our instructor) on the progess/standard/performance of the dudes taking part in the formal grading. I am talking about 'outside' instructors (not affiliated to our club) from BJJ Clubs we usually compete with. It is a first to me. In my prevouis MA experience, I am used to see instructors from affiliated clubs and even my instructor's master to come and 'witness' the grading but never had to be 'scrutunize'/judge by 'foreign' instructors from clubs I compete with.

Some guys (sucessfull in BJJ tournament and in their own local club) do get promoted to higher belt faster than other. My friend from my club won the national BJJ title for his weight category and was a runner up for the open weight category. He only got promoted 3 stripes for his sucess. Needless to say my other unsucesfull friends did 1 stripe. But my point is he has beaten everybosy in my country that wanted to participate in nthe the national BJJ tournament in his weight category/white belt, he still have to wait a bit longer to get promoted to blue belt.
Which is not a bad thing, I must say! Because by the time he get to blue belt, he would have 'rule' and won his weight category/belt level a few time.
He would gain much more experience that being thrown into a 'higher' competitive category too soon.

[cakegirl]

A big "thank you" to Kano, Maeda, the Gracies, my instructors, and everyone else that has brought BJJ, Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Judo, whatever the heck you want to call it, to the point where it is today!

Hear hear!