The Decline of MMA

[Uke]

guys - if most of you are not frequent visitors to the JKD forum, then one - good for you, and two - you would probably be interested in reading 'Uke' thread on there about 'the floating punch'

it seems to me that someone who subsribes this 'floating punch' non-sense must not have good grasp of what it means to train, compete, or fight in an MMA/realistic manner. if you have the time to pontificate such things then i think your time would be better spent training and testing out any of these MMA theories you have and relying on personal experience to point you in the right direction. thats exactly where the MMA evolution is. you of course entitled to you opinion - and pls don't take this as an sort of personal attack - it just seems that you your opinion is not as informed/educated as you may giving yourself credit for.

Not for nothing, but when did I ever even give the illusion that I subscribe to any technique, let alone the floating punch? The post was meant to seek out anyone who practiced the technique and may or may have not found success with it.

I'm not sure at what point what I have written offended you, but your eloquently articulated misplaced anger still shows itself for what it is: a disagreement that led you to question "how much credit I give myself". Instead of wasting your time trying to persuade others about how much we are not informed/educated, you'd do better to offer something of substance to discuss.

I offered an opinion on an article I read authored by James DeMile, and asked this forum if anyone had practiced this "floating punch". Some have had experience with it while some have not. But all you have offered is what you have to ask not be interpreted as a personal attack. Can you attack someone you know nothing about? Or do you just see yourself intuitive enough to "know" things you have no knowledge of?

If you see the floating punch as nonsense as you called it, then that is your opinion and I respect your right to have it. However, if you feel the need to further bicker about the technique, then I'd suggest you seek out Mr DeMile as he is the man who practices and teaches it.

I wish I had more to reply to in this post, but if you read carefully you didn't write one thing about martial arts. Just silly ideas about what "my" grasp on it must be.

[Uke]

C. Montes

"The reason that Mirko Flilpovic is so accomplished in MMA is because nearly no one strikes as well as that man in MMA. However he knows that in K-1 he would not enjoy this much success. "

CroCop KO'ed all his opponents with head kicks in the first K-1 tournament he ever entered. he made it to the finals where he was beaten by Ernesto Hoost - no shame there. it was Ernesto's night. the reason he fights in Pride is because they are now the bigger promotion and offer him more money.

the reason more 'masters' don't come out and fight is because they know they are not athletes and their art is not a performance based art that can actually help them in a realistic fighting situation or if they are already a combat athlete - it may be too much for their ego or physicality to incorporate realistic crosstraining whether its striking, wrestling, or bjj.

"That's the "evolution" you speak of? You can see similar fights in nearly all cowboy movies. You can see that SAME EXACT fight at the end of Lethal Weapon, a scene choreographed by none other than Rorion Gracie. A film over 10 years old but you say there's been some so-called "evolution"?"

the correct point is made from the wrong perspective - you're right, there is no evolution there but its best illustrated by the guy laying the floor getting punched/submitted/choked for lacking a viable delivery system to fight in a totally foreign evironment.

What I stated before still stands true. Crocop is an excellent striker, and I went as far as to call him a "master" kickboxer. Whether or not he would have or even could have won the K-1 tournament does little to refute what I has stated. I said he'd enjoy less success due to the comeptition in K-1 being a better grade than MMA. I made no such comments about him being unable to win. Please address what is written, not what you assume I meant.

The reason masters don't come out and fight? Masters doesn't equate to what you may believe is an old man with a belt or sash tied around his waist who never fights. Those are paper tigers. A master is someone who masters his craft. Above I referred to CroCop as a "master" kickboxer and Nogueira as a "master" BJJ player. And as far as Lethal Weapon showing evolution...at the time, yes it did. I don't think I made a claim that it didn't. What I did claim is that they were fighting the same way 10 years ago, and they're doing the same way today. The only evolution is that fighters aren't easy prey as they were in the early UFC's due to their lack of knowledge of BJJ. They've improved their ground skills because they had finally been exposed to it. A last fact for this point is you used the word "athletes". More accurately, it should be noted as professional athletes, as many of these guys don't have jobs and dedicate their life to training. This further puts emphasis on my points. An better conditioned man will have the upper hand as long as he can keep from geeting hurt. These guys are trained like marathon runners, so they're just waiting for an opportunity. The average man is not training like that, and therefore he wouldn't have the stamina to fight with what you "feel" would work.

I also stated that the Gracies planted their flag in the MA community by showing standup fighters that there was a huge hole in their game. Learning the techniques is the only way to patch those holes. However, there is a difference between using that patch as a defense or an offense. Many of us have watched how at the first sign of danger, fighters lay straight down on their backs, feet off the ground looking to kick. If that's your idea of evolution, I dare you to try that in a street altercation. Wait, I don't know what your streets are like. Come to New York and lay down on the ground like that. I know what these streets are like.

PS While Crocop is an striker, he has let the MMA "adrenaline" rush reel his focus in. Its easy to get unfocused when the crowd is screaming for blood. It happenes to boxers all the time. And that's why a wrestler knocked him(CroCop), a master striker out with a strike.

[Uke]

Jaguar Wong

I'm a little confused...You say there's no evolution in MMAs, yet you point to Frank Shamrock. He's one of the examples I would have used to show that there is some evolution in the sport. I also point to Bas Rutten, and if you want a more recent example, Duane Ludwig (Bas Rutten's student). He's a fantastic striker, and when he's taken to the ground, he goes for submissions, and tries to bring the fight back up if he's unable to finish it on the ground. He's an excellent example of the evolution they're talking about.

Chris Brennan is another "evolved" fighter that you're glossing over. In fact many of the top guys in the King of the Cage are excellent fighters that have developed a very strong set of skills because of the evolution they're talking about. Each has a strong set of skills both standing and on the ground, yet they all specialize in something. Marvin Eastman is a skilled grappler, but he's known for his Muay Thai. Vernon White is very difficult to beat on the ground (The Lion's Den does a fantastic job of training him to keep the fight where he's most comfortable), and has some great strikes. Like I mentioned, Chris Brennan is an excellent grappler, yet he's finished a fight or two by KO. Duane Ludwig (one of my current favorites) kicks some serious butt both standing and on the ground (most guys he's fought tried to bring the fight down, because of his strikes, yet he holds his own on the mat as well).

I don't want this post to be taken the wrong way. I'm not trying to come off as angry, I'm just confused as to where you actually stand on the matter. I know you want the bare knuckle brawls brought back, but what does it matter which style they use? The hybrid styles you see coming into MMA today are just as much of a style as Muay Thai, or Judo. Just because they mix elements from other styles doesn't mean that they all just hop around, not developing the skills properly. So what if they're training for the ring. They're still better off on the streets than some belt chaser coming out of a McDojo (I'm not talking about the hardcore TMAists, I'm talking about the other 90+% that attend the strip mall dojos and McKwoons).

Thanks for the reply Jaguar, and no you didn't come off as some angry child like some others have.

Now if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I specifically stated that there are some glimpses of caliber in MMA. Bas and the Shamrocks were caliber. So do you expect them to turn out less than par students to represent them? And caliber doesn't mean that you use more than one range, meaning grappling in addition to striking or vice versa. When I use caliber, I mean you master a set of techniques so that you are formidable no matter who you fight. Not relying on luck or one shot knockouts. Not everybody has knockout power, so what do you do then? Vernon White has lost more than he's won, and he's always lost to the better guys. Marvin Eastman has not done much to validate being called caliber. I think you mistook what I meant by evolve. Crosstraining doesn't mean you've evolved.

My definition of evolution is change for the better to be more efficient and adept. In the MMA enviroment, maybe ground and pound works best. That wasn't my point in contention. I said MMA is NOT reality based and the techniques that they use in their controlled enviroment endanger anyone who uses them in the street. The TOP participants in the MMA are usually adept at what they do BEFORE they enter. So if they show up to fight, does that mean the event evolves? Did CroCop evolve, even though he was an excelent striker BEFORE Pride? No. I told you some of the few who have...like Frank Shamrock and Randy Couture. Both were excellent at what they did beforehand, but they added some new skills to "compliment" their old ones, not to replace them.

At any rate, it was a pleasure reading your post and discussing this with you Jaguar.

[C. Montes]

"Not for nothing, but when did I ever even give the illusion that I subscribe to any technique, let alone the floating punch?"

this is where i got that impression.

"Does anyone here practice this technique? And if so, have you been successful in developing the necessary power to make the strike lethal? I ask only because I have not seen many of you discuss this technique, when in my opinion, it should be the main focus of your training. The ability to, as DeMile describes " break necks, collapse lungs and break heart valves".

to tell you the truth though - i really don't care enough about the technique/topic to inquire, explore, or discuss it any further.

"I said he'd enjoy less success due to the comeptition in K-1 being a better grade than MMA. I made no such comments about him being unable to win. "

to me those 2 sentences are somewhat contradictory since i believe most would equate success in a combat sport with your abiltiy to win and a proven record.

"I'm not sure at what point what I have written offended you, but your eloquently articulated misplaced anger still shows itself for what it is:"

believe me - no anger there at all - just a discussion forum and sometimes people simply disagree with one another.

for example ... "While Crocop is an striker, he has let the MMA "adrenaline" rush reel his focus in. Its easy to get unfocused when the crowd is screaming for blood. It happenes to boxers all the time. And that's why a wrestler knocked him(CroCop), a master striker out with a strike."

i believe he was just faked out by a guy who understood what his opponents strategy was, planned the appropriate counter-attack, and fortunately enough for him all the pieces fell into place. just strategy, timing, and execution - this i will agree happens in boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, etc all the time. i don't think any MMA adrenaline rush reeled him in or had anything to do with it.

"More accurately, it should be noted as professional athletes, as many of these guys don't have jobs and dedicate their life to training. This further puts emphasis on my points. An better conditioned man will have the upper hand as long as he can keep from geeting hurt. These guys are trained like marathon runners, so they're just waiting for an opportunity. The average man is not training like that, and therefore he wouldn't have the stamina to fight with what you "feel" would work."

you are only talking about the top of the food chain in MMA when you refer to guys who train all day and don't have jobs. there is still not a lot of money to be made in MMA even on the professional level. the sport is still quite young & growing and doesnt attract the kind of sponsorship that would allow the avg pro to make a living off of fighting, even in the UFC - the rookies get paid very little in comparison to the big names. i know quite a few amatuer and professional MMA athletes who have full-time or part-time jobs cuz fighting in MMA just won't pay bills.

but your last sentence seems to insuate that the arts used in MMA will only work for an MMA athlete. not true - your analogy of the marathon runners could actually illustrate my point. in the NYC Marathon for example, you'll have international and world class runners, but you'll also have recreational and less than world caliber people running. just because they will not place as high as the pros does that make their running not valid. is there something wrong with their form or sneaker brand or training ethic? No. just different attributes, goals, and limitations. same thing for most other athletic endeavors, including combat sports. of course when you watch the pros do it you (hopefully) watch the highest level of expression in the art but that doesn't take away from the validity of the delivery system or the ability for the avg guy to use and apply these tools for sport or self-defense, with the proper training.

the alternative is to start believing that there is a magic pill out there for 'the average man' to bypass sweating, hard work, mat-time and sparring time in order to aquire functional skill. any sort of shortcut will eventually reveal itself in one way or another as a big waste of time.

[Jaguar Wong]

Ok, so when you say "evolve", are you talking about a fighter mastering a skillset to the point of being able to utilize that skillset against any other fighter? Like Pedro Rizzo learning enough grappling to keep the fight standing and bring the pain, or CroCop drilling a sprawl so that he can prevent other fighters from taking him out of his element? If so then I don't see that kind of evolution happening to the arts themselves. I think that's probably the type of evolution that only happens to individuals.

What I thought you meant by evolution of the arts was more about the fighting sport itself (MMA, since that's what you mentioned is on the decline). Now we see fighters that have to work on many attributes in order to succeed. Not only do they need to know their chosen skillset, but they also have to be knowledgable enough to use/defend against other skillsets (strikes/kicks, takedowns, submissions, etc). Also they have to be in great physical shape (not counting the use of steroids, since they don't all juice) because without the strength, speed and endurance to last if you're unable to finish your opponent quickly, you're body will quit the fight before your spirit does.

So even though Vernon White wasn't the best example of a fighter evolving, I chose him because he's got a mediocre record, but IMO he can handle most of what many weekend warriors can't when things get rough. I think we were just arguing two different definitions on the "evolution" of MMA/fighters.

Also, thank you for your calm and collected reply

[Mister]

Uke, what are you talking about getting your knees scraped up and your elbows scraped up when you go for a takedown? The average Joe doesnt have enough Takedown defense to give you much trouble taking him down if youre a good wrestler. And if he is good and you do scrape your knees up a bit, ( no big deal), well its worth it cause after that you could drop him onto his head.

Dont get me wrong I know MMA is not self defense. But almost all techniques have their place in combat. Its not the smartest idea at all to pull guard and start working for a submission in the middle of a bar room brawl. But lets say you were mounted and the guys punching you. You had no choice the guy surprised you by tackling you to the ground. Now some BJJ skills would help, so you can escape the mount. You have to know when to use what. In most fights, you want to prevent going to the ground at all costs. But if youre sure its safe to go there, or maybe you NEED to go there, because youre about to get KOed, (remember this is when youre sure its safe to go to the ground) then take it there. Its to save your own life. Ground fighting techniques have their place in combat, but theyre not as important to self defense as they are to MMA.

Your argument about MMA is really pointless. Think about it. You say you want to see the style v. style format. In a way this format still exists. Everyone specializes in something. Look at Noguiera v. CroCop as an example, That fight was clearly a Bjj specialist, vs. a kickboxer. You say you wish people would concentrate on what theyre good at and learn just a little bit of everything else. I think thats pretty much what everyone has been doing. Except just a little bit isnt enough. These people want to be succesful. They cant be one dimensional. You want to defend against Nogs triangle, youre going to need more than some anti grappling moves, OK? Sure the kickboxer might be better at kickboxing if he trained all Kickboxing and no BJJ, but guess what Uke? Hes training to be an MMAist. Not a kickboxer. However the Kickboxer still concentrates on his specialty. I dont care if an MMAist would get whooped if he went over to K1 or Abu Dhabi or whatever. Whenever one of their top guys comes over to Pride ( Stefan Leko, Mark Hunt, and some sub specialists with nothing else), they get owned. Those people that come over here and get owned, and are one dimensional, the same type of fighter you say you want to see more of, the type of fighter who represents how every fighter was in the beginning, were owned by the new breed, if you will, of fighters who Im talking about. They all have specialties, yet fight comfortably in all ranges. Now, which type of fighting represents combat at its true pure form with as little restrictions as possible? Kickboxing, sub wrestling or MMA?The answer is MMA.
No one said MMA represents self defense, its just combat. Unarmed, one on one combat. All the techniques have their place, theyre all effective, and they all apply to self defense, depending on the scenario. You just have to know when to use them. For self defense, add some weapons defense, some dirty techniques, biting, eye gouging, throat strikes. Be smart. MMA has shown us what true unarmed oneonone combat is really like with as much safety as possible for the sake of the fighters. And until you can put one guy vs. 5 other guys all armed with knives in a cage (never), its the most accurate test of what works in real life (given the right environment to use it)and what doesnt work.So stop complaining Uke. Long live MMA.

[mosin]

The argument should be: which is the better fighter in MMA? Strikers or grapplers? MMA has been around for quite a while and we have the benefit of past fights recorded in film. At the start it was bjj and wrestling. Then strikers were able to cut the losses pretty quickly, despite having to compete in MMA events against the best grapplers around. (Crocop-Nog, Igor etc.) How would Noguiera fare in K-1 or if he has to fight 1 or 2 top ten ranked heavyweight boxers? After all he is regarded as having the best boxing skills in MMA. He would get knocked out in the 1st round for sure. Once grapplers pretend to be somebody they're not , they get in trouble. (Shamrock-Fujita)
They just don't have the stamina and endurance a boxer has. Standing up seems hard work for them. Ground fighting is pretty deceiving, grapplers have to win quick or they get easily FAGGED OUT! Ismail staggers to his corner after the first round against Steibling. I saw 1 MMA fighter fight in Thunderbox, and his pre-fight interview sums up the crap MMA is all about. He said in boxing you only have to worry about 2 hands, pretty confident of a win, did he win the tournament? Not no, but HELL NO! He lost his 1st fight.

[radicus]

The argument should be: which is the better fighter in MMA? Strikers or grapplers? MMA has been around for quite a while and we have the benefit of past fights recorded in film. At the start it was bjj and wrestling. Then strikers were able to cut the losses pretty quickly, despite having to compete in MMA events against the best grapplers around. (Crocop-Nog, Igor etc.) How would Noguiera fare in K-1 or if he has to fight 1 or 2 top ten ranked heavyweight boxers? After all he is regarded as having the best boxing skills in MMA. He would get knocked out in the 1st round for sure. Once grapplers pretend to be somebody they're not , they get in trouble. (Shamrock-Fujita)
They just don't have the stamina and endurance a boxer has. Standing up seems hard work for them. Ground fighting is pretty deceiving, grapplers have to win quick or they get easily FAGGED OUT! Ismail staggers to his corner after the first round against Steibling. I saw 1 MMA fighter fight in Thunderbox, and his pre-fight interview sums up the crap MMA is all about. He said in boxing you only have to worry about 2 hands, pretty confident of a win, did he win the tournament? Not no, but HELL NO! He lost his 1st fight.

1. Noguiera does NOT have the best boxing hands in MMA, he is a grappler. The right statement should be, "Noguiera has almost the worst hands in MMA".
2. Straight boxer will get owned in K1.
3. Straight boxer will get TOTALY owned in MMA.
4. MMA/K1 is much more entertaining to watch than boxing.

I just want to point out that you know absolutely nothing about MMA or grappling.

[Uke]

To all of you

There's way too much aggression invested in this thread. I didn't realize how sensitive you all are.

Instead of me writing individual responses to all of you, I'll just sum it up here.

First, I do prefer style vs style, because the idea of these tournaments was to find out what worked and what didn't work, but also what styles were producing the best fighters. If you all are suggesting that karate, kung fu or boxing doesn't work because of the participants who used these style in MMA thus far then you're all go ahead and believe what you've been believing. However, if any of you want to be proven wrong I have a long list of traditional martial artists that would LOVE for you to come show them how MMA works and their traditional style "doesn't".

Instead of me debating and defending myself from what some of you falsely accuse me of stating, I'll just state what I do feel.

Any fighter will be a better fighter having learned to defend himself from a ground assault. The Gracie's have shown us that there is a tremendous vulnerablity in those who do not possess the skills to defend and or reverse a BJJ attack. There was never any dispute over that.

While there are examples of fighters who exemplify masterful techniques, they are the minority in MMA, not the majority. I've already made the point that there are talented fighters in MMA. I've even given some names. But I'm not going to lie and say that even 20% are among them. Chuck Liddell is a perfect example. Chuck is supposedly one of the most feared, proficient strikers in MMA. Did you watch him get outboxed by a 40 year old wrestler who hadn't been boxing for more than 6 months? Tito Ortiz was THEE top fighter for a while in the UFC. When he fought the same 40 year old, what happened? His beating was proof positive to what I'm saying. Don't ignore those two examples, as those two were the UFC cream of the crop. What I feel Couture will be remember for is showing the hole in all these young fighter's game, just like Royce did in the beginning. The difference is that Royce could only win on the ground. Couture is standing up with the best as well as taking it to the mat with the best. The top two best.

Now, no one ever claimed Couture was some excellent grappler. No one ever claimed that Couture was some excellent striker. He's always been known as a seasoned wrestler who was tough as nails. The first couple of times we saw Oleg Taktarov, it was evident that he was a superior grappler. The first couple of times we saw Mirko Crocop, we knew almost instantly that he was a superior striker. That isn't the case with Couture. All he's done is get better at the fundamentals and apply them in the ring. Fundamentals being a basic jab and his wrestling background. If this 40 year old guy could do this to young, strong top fighters CONSISTENTLY then its a matter of time before K-1 strikers begin sprawling and reversing guards and mounts in order to get in position to deliver more strikes. Frank Shamrock is the other example I used. A really good grappler who learned striking from the other man who showed that striking had become neglected in this "realistic" tournament". At one point, most fighters had put all their faith in grappling until Mo Smith knocked Conan's head nearly into the stands.

The poster "Mister" says my argument is pointless, even though many of the points I made he clearly avoided! Like the fact that MMA has taken a step backwards by implementing weight classes. Weight class is the single most reality-negating part of MMA. If you got rid of the weight classes, then you'd REALLY begin to see what worked and what doesn't. See, even though I'm not a big fan of ground fighting as a sole source of a fighting style, Royce was the man because he fought everyone, no matter what height or weight or style they were. Now that the "rules" make sure your opponent is similar in weight, your so-called "evolution" looks like more than it really is because now the bouts are more competitive BECAUSE OF THAT RULE. Let's see BJ Penn beat Josh Barnett. Then his skills will really be proven. Let Matt Hughes beat someone like Mirko Filipovic, then we'll know just how good he really is.

The "evolution" that you all seem to be defending with so much emotion is not a sign of how much better the skills have gotten, but how much better the match making has "evolved" to make each fighter have a "fair" shot.

We'll guess what, Gentlemen? FIGHTING HAS NEVER BEEN FAIR. Boxing is fair. Kickboxing is fair. And neither are reality fighting as much as they are fighting sports. So how in the world can you state that sport fighting has "evolved" further than street orientated martial arts? If your argument was that MMA participants can beat Mom & Pop Dojo fighters who telegraph each strike and pose alot, then we've ALWAYS agreed. So why has that become your point in contention?

What I have been stating, and until now I didn't realize that I had to spell it out for some, was that I would have liked to have seen MMA events go back the way of more reality. Is that so terrible? To see what really "works", we have to let the big guys fight the small guys. Let's see just how willing the small guys like BJ Penn will be to put guys like Bob Sapp in the guard. I'm not saying it can't happen or that Penn can't win. I'd simply like to see it. And I don't feel like its asking for anything ridiculous because Royce Gracie did it his entire time in the UFC.

"You say you want to see the style v. style format. In a way this format still exists. Everyone specializes in something. Look at Noguiera v. CroCop as an example, That fight was clearly a Bjj specialist, vs. a kickboxer." -Mister

Yes it was, Mister. And the 2 examples you used were 2 of the examples I already gave as being masters of their crafts. So what's your point? My point was that masters like CroCop and Nogueira have managed to win the majority of the time WITHOUT having to operate outside of their core styles. Not even 15% of the fighters in the MMA rosters can make that claim. And THAT was exactly why I said that MMA is in decline.

Ground and pound is tailor made for beating up someone your size or smaller. Try that on someone who is bigger and not too much slower than you and see what happens. The reason that you believe that the fighters in MMA have gotten and I quote "MUCH, MUCH better" is because you haven't seen them try those same skills against someone who outweighs them by 50lbs. When a rule that says you can't fight anyone not relatively your weight is instituted, the fighters don't HAVE to train as hard because the fights aren't as difficult as they COULD be if the weight classes were taken out.

Yes, I said train as hard. If they trained as hard as you imagine they do Liddell and Ortiz wouldn't have lost by a landslide. Training hard doesn't mean just hitting the bag, situps, weights, running and wrestling. It means working hard on the mastering the basics. Not just punching and kicking a a bag hard until you're tired. It means getting the form correctly, like CroCop has so that you can always beat your opponent to the next hit and bring power and speed with you. If Liddell had mastered just the basic jab he wouldn't have gotten beaten up by Couture like he did. Its not just learning to reverse a move, but how to remain calm and focused when the heat gets turned up and you get hit a couple of times, like Mario "Zen master" Sperry and Nogueira. Few fighters exhibit those characteristics in MMA. Like I previously said, the fighters that do are not the norm but the exception.

Think about it a moment without feeling the need to defend it.

[wardancer]

Hi Uke,
What Is The Issue?
Regards,
Wardancer

[C. Montes]

"However, if any of you want to be proven wrong I have a long list of traditional martial artists that would LOVE for you to come show them how MMA works and their traditional style "doesn't".

here's a thought. why don't you take even a couple of those names from that long list of traditional martial artist you have and see if they'd be willing to fight the top MMA pro's of today like Silva, Couture, Minotauro, Crocop, Penn, Hughes, etc...
i'm assuming that you're talking about the high ranking masters of traditional martial arts, correct? why not match them up against their MMA equivalent? we would LOVE to see that. but we won't will we. you'll get excuses and false bravado like i don't fight for sport or my art is too deadly, etc ...

if you think Chuck Liddel's striking skills are so lackluster why don't you go to his trainer center and see what its like to spar with him - just stand up striking. or even better why not go pick on that poor old 40 year old Randy Couture - head out to a Team Quest camp and do some sparring with him. Liddel and Couture routinely put on MMA/kickboxing camps/clinics for all level of martial artists and also spar and roll with the participants. i think that experience would give you a better perspective on what you're attempting to debate.

in regards to Couture vs. Ortiz - he didnt show a hole in Ortiz's game, just proved that Ortiz strength - Clinch & takedowns, basically wrestling, which he has a 2 year Junior College amateur background in was no match for Couture's strength - 30 years of wrestling experiencing culminating in world-class and international level competition. same range and fighting tactics ... he was just much, much better at it.

all Couture did vs. Liddell, and you can read this in one of his recent interviews is press the fight and be the aggressor against Liddell. most feared strikers are used to stalking their wary opponents and picking their shots, they are not used to being forced to defend and go backwards. Holyfield did this to Tyson. as simple as it sounds it totally disrupts their rythym and thats all it takes to lose the fight. again its not a matter of technique at this point but strategy and the ability to execute. its one thing to say but definitely quite another thing to do.

by the way - i am curious as to who you are referring to thats on your list of traditional martial artists in your earlier thread.

and by comparison alone - this is one of the more tame MA forums out there. i don't see that much aggression on this forum in general or this thread in particular. if anything you're the one who keeps sounding offended - just suck it up, make your point, back it up with credible sources/evidence, quit the double-talk, and stop being so sensitive.

[ryanhall]

you're the one who keeps sounding offended - just suck it up, make your point, back it up with credible sources/evidence, quit the double-talk, and stop being so sensitive

That's what she said...

Uke needs more practice breakfalling, as tori is beating him senseless.

Rd. 1- C. Montes/Mister. Or is it "Mister"?

Will Uke answer the bell for rd. 2, or has he had enough?

Christian,

Don't get sucked into internet forums, dude.

[C. Montes]

yeah i know, i know ...

you go through phases like this when you're bored at work. its only slightly more entertaining than the company database ;-)
wait till you get a desk job whipper-snapper!
now go check your email cuz i've just bestowed some guard passing wisdom on your ungrateful ass!

[Tom Yum]

if anything you're the one who keeps sounding offended - just suck it up, make your point, back it up with credible sources/evidence, quit the double-talk, and stop being so sensitive.

Is double talk a warning sign of multiple personality disorder ?

[cocoy]

These "unevolved" young men are laying their bodies down on the line in order to do the research for the rest of us. For that I respect all of the men and women who step into the ring. Take an Eric Paulson seminar you will find what evolution means.