The Decline of MMA

[Mr. Miyagi]

Uke,
Kevin Jackson was an olympic gold medalist and Townsend Saunders was a silver medalist. Yoshida was a gold medalist. Their skills don't make them top mma fighters. MMA is a hybrid fighting style these days, even if you're not good at everything you have to be aware of all the techniques of striking and grappling. The top fighters, while trying to steer the fight to their strengths, are skilled enough to avoid certain pitfalls of MMA.
There are still some toughman types in MMA, but none of them are top fighters. But you can't refer to any standup slugger that isn't of K1 caliber as a 'toughman' type, take Igor Vov. He definitely isn't of the caliber to fight in the best standup-only events, but he had little trouble dispatching the unprepared Gilbert Yvel by choke, and Yvel was truly a world class kickboxer.
Not all of the athletes that are the best in an individual art are the best ones from that art to compete in MMA. Guys like Saulo Riberio, Wallid, Jackson and Saunders, Yvel, are among the elite of their sport but aren't cut out for MMA. Saulo could hang with just about any elite grappler but he couldn't make the transition to MMA. Tito Ortiz isn't even close to the wrestler that Kevin Jackson is, but Tito did a better job in using his skills for MMA. Chuck Lidell isn't anything special as a kickboxer, but his striking along with his takedown defense and tenacity make him one of the top fighters. These days MMA has little to do with the individual art.
The art has evolved a lot. You mentioned Severn earlier. Nowadays, it is quite rare for a top MMA fighter of wrestling background to get caught in a triangle and not know what it is, or get guillotined while shooting, etc. The top MMA fighters of wrestling background have ways of dealing with this, they either use grappling technique to counter (Couture, Henderson) or they escape these things by brute force (Rampage, Trigg, Randleman). But they have a plan to defend subs, something Severn did not have.

Last thing, as MMA spreads and becomes more popular, things will evolve further. There needs to be more money for the fighters, and then the talent will come. Besides the UFC and PRIDE, MMA shows pay peanuts to their fighters. And even UFC and PRIDE don't function enough like offical sports, they resort to circus attractions to make their shows popular too often; the UFC bringing all those old farts back is just as bad as PRIDE using pro wrestlers and guys like the giants Silva and Ochai, and Takada.

[gaittec]

Well damn!

[Uke]

C.Montes, you claimed that I'm double talking? What have I said to contradict myself?

You say write things and back them up. I do just that, but the points that I write and back up that you cannot address just seem to disappear from your replies.

Such points as steroids, and how easy it is to see that many of the contestants are using them. Some aren't even in that good of shape, but still have six packs. Josh Barnett went from flabby to solid, and beat the Man of the hour, Randy Couture. It happenes all too often. Especially with the shorter, stocky guys.

I made other points like the fact that Couture beat Liddell and Ortiz, each at their own supposed specialty and range. C.Montes, you now try and gloss over the fact that he outgrappled a grappler and outstruck a striker. You ignore the fact that those two were hailed as the top 2 young UFC fighters, and the fact that Couture is 40+ years old. He should be passed his prime, and I believe he is. It's just that the competition isn't so good that it makes a difference.

Why don't you talk about weight class, and how it situates things in such a way that the fighters look more formindable than they really are. Why didn't you get into how I specifically stated that what I wanted to return from the "old" UFC was the fact that no weight classes would REALLY show what worked and what didn't. You didn't mention that C.Montes because you had nothing to add.

Mr Miyagi, you on the other hand had something to offer worth discussing. I agree and acknowledge your points about the medalists and kickboxers and such. However I did state before that once these caliber athletes learn the "other" range that they are not familiar with they will be tremendously more formidable. CroCop got beat by Nogueira because he relied much on just striking and the sprawl as a defense against grappling. I'm inclined to believe that he's going to bring in a coach now to learn more about handling those situations, but I doubt that we'll see him trying to go to the guard anytime soon.

Mr Miyagi, the last paragraph in your post was on point and I agreed with much of it. I don't see it getting much more money though. Many things would have to change. Right now its cheap fun to watch these guys beat each other up, but unless the quality of the fighters rises, I don't see anyone sinking professional level money into the sport. Of the giants you mentioned, the most memorable to me is Emmanuel Yarborough. He was big in every way you put it.

[wardancer]

In the beginning, Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) started out with noble ambitions. Its purpose was to put style vs. style in an environment with the least amount of rules. Biting, eye gouging and fish hooks were the only maneuvers prohibited. Pads were not required. There were no time limits. No rounds or breaks. In fact the only thing that could/should have been changed was the fact that there was a soft mat in the ring, which took away any reservations about shooting in, going to your back or attempting flying maneuvers (armbars, kicks and takedowns).
Now, the only purists are the BJJ guys. .

UKE ....

[wardancer]

UKE,
You are an idealist.
You live in your own world.
10 years ago, I would be interested in your post but now you do not have any point.
MMA is winning in their fighting format and TMA is down the road.
You might respect BJJ but it is not TMA.

[C. Montes]

Uke,

See? i told you, you were the one who sounded offended =p!
but anyways. the points i addressed where the ones i felt were worth addressing. and no, i don't believe you do back up the things you say with real evidence. you just present your perspective on particular scenarios in MMA/fight game - however that perspective i still feel lacks any real world experience & for the most part, continues to be an uneducated opinon. if you were sincere about contributing to a discussion then you would look to remedy that ingnorance. cuz right now you seem to only enjoy discussions with people who don't call you on your BS, which is of course understandable. btw - i thought i posted a couple of sentences where you contradicted yourself in my earlier post, read it again please.

if you want me to address the topic of steroids? well, thats an unfortunate by-product of competitive physical culture that you'll find in most other professional sports. when dealing with pro athletes you will inevitably find some who are will to use performance enhancing drugs as a shortcut. again - this is nothing new. we can't actively make a difference as fans, we can choose not to do it as fighters/athletes ourselves (i dont' think this applies to you) but we ultimatley have no control over the judgements of others. lets not lose sleep over it.

the issue about the weight classes. if anything - thats a credit to the evolution of the sport. why do they use weight classes in any other combat sport? because they know that once the skill level of the athletes comes close to par with eachother, then size, strength, and wieght play a huge difference. since at heart, these sports try to showcase athletic skill, then it goes to reason that they want to minimize that wieght disparity. just the same concept in reverse. the combative skill level of the modern MMA fighter has risen to a point where there are obviously no secrets and everyone is making an attempt to be well-rounded. The reason Royce Gracie was able to demolish people in his fist couple of UFC's was because they were completey ingnorant in regards to the clinch and groundfighting aspects of their game. even the grapplers he fought, Ken Shamrock and Remco Pardoe, were not as polished as Royce was at using their grappling skills in an MMA environment against another skilled grappler that was. that was all technique and for a brief period it was Royce and BJJ, delivery to us the holy grail of all martial arts fantasies - the little guy defeating the huge guy by using skill and technique. those days are gone. like i said before the disparity in skill level is no longer there like it used to be. size and strength matters in every day life and self-defense, just like it matters in the combat sports, especially the upper echelons. thats just the truth.

if anything the grappling arts are still one of the few arts where the smaller man can still easily defeat a larger, stronger but unskilled opponent. in striking its still very hard to do that cuz the big guy always has a puncher's chance and its very rare you'll be in any sort of real fight or altercation and not get hit. i for one, don't care to watch Oscar De La Hoya vs. Tyson or Felix Trinidad vs. Lennox Lewis, thats not sport. its just spectacle. i think MMA as a sport and skillset are way beyond that.

[C. Montes]

"You ignore the fact that those two were hailed as the top 2 young UFC fighters, and the fact that Couture is 40+ years old."

those things are pretty self-evident and hard to ignore - no argument there. you know why? because its true! whoopee!! what's your point?

"He should be passed his prime, and I believe he is. It's just that the competition isn't so good that it makes a difference."

he is obviously not passed his prime. you are just plain wrong on that. he may be rapidly approaching it. take any 40 year old - who been a competitive combat athlete pretty much his entire life and see what kind of pushover he is. but also consider his list of defeated opponents - Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Vitor Belfort, Maurice Smith, Kevin Randelman, Pedro Rizzo (twice), Tsuyoshi Koshaka. and two notheworthy defeats - Josh Barnett and Ricco Rodriguez, two extremely talented and huge guys (6'5" and 260 lbs i believe) in comparison to Couture. in fact those were fights where he was still able to dominate early on. guys of this stature are the reason Couture on fights at Lt. Heavy and not Heavyweight anymore.
again at this level of fighting weight makes a difference but it still didnt stop him from defeating those other fighters.

IMO its no shame to lose to Randy Couture.

or you can go on believing "It's just that the competition isn't so good that it makes a difference." and you can go ahead and cite that with the above-mentioned fighters. good luck with proving that to an MMA athlete or even just an educated fan/enthusiat.

speaking of lists - where is yours of traditional martial artists who could show us how their traditional art would work against MMA. remember you mentioned that earlier?
i addressed the points in your last post. how about some of those names?

"Quid Pro Quo, Clarice, Quid Pro Quo ..."

[Mister]

Uke, You have contradicted yourself so many times its not funny. I would never lie on my back with my legs open while my opponent is standing in a street fight. Actually, I wouldnt do it in an MMA fight either. If anything MMA has proven that thats not a good idea, Just ask any of the number of opponents who have gotten face stomped by Wandy or jumped on by Sakuraba. So you say that MMA is not like real fighting because people lie down on their backs with their feet in the air while their opponent is standing up, yet in MMA whenever they do that they suffer the consequences. So that just shows MMA is similar to real fighting because they are allowed to stomp on the guys head (at least in Pride). What wouldnt be real is if there were rules saying you couldnt hit a downed opponent. BTW, People do that in MMA because the person has gotten up from their guard and theyre waiting for the right time to stand up so they wont eat a kick or knee, obviously.

Uke, noone has claimed that MMA training will prepare you for street violence and crime if they have weapons or if youre simply outnumbered. NOTHING can prepare you for 5 attackers with knives who are surrounding you. MMA is simply a sport resembling real fighting very closely. You can pretty much use all your weapons (I mean the ones you have naturally, punches, kicks, knees etc.) in pretty much any position. The point was to see what unarmed combat techniques or styles would really work.

In other words, for fighting, street fighting, and self defense MMA training will definitely help you a lot, as long as youre not surrounded by 5 guys with knives in their hands, in which case Id suggest you do what they tell you to. And pretty much nothing except some disarming techniques, even though thats probably riskier than just doing what they tell you to do, will prepare you for people with weapons.

[Alvaro Lobato]

UKE made a great thread !

UKE, it was a very interesting text and comments. Still I disagree with most of your opinions. Let me see if the resume below put it straight:

1. Weight categories are good for safety reasons...and fair reasons.
2. Yes, UFC and Pride do not represent properly self-defense. In fact, due to its "almost-real" aura, it may mislead people into believing some mma styles may effectively work in real life situations.
3. Nevertheless it is the best we have ever achieved in terms on no-barrels hold. I have always hated the boxing limitations, for instance.
4. Yes, there was a great evolution through cross-trainning. It is not pure, nor meant to be. It is MMA technique !
5. Time limits are needed for commercial reasons.
6. Limits on rules are good for safety reasons, though I prefer Pride.
7. Yess I miss good old times, miss the weight differences and holes in fighter´s techniques. Yes, I miss some Kung-fu, TKD, Aikido more sophisticated moves.
8. But I love the show, preferably when you see a more purist guy like Cro-Cop or Minotauro.

Anyway, thanks for your contribuittion. It was a good text and pointted out some interesting aspects that, I am sure, a lot of people share.

As for myself, I must say that MMA tournaments made me cross-train and be more critic toward my original martial art.

All the best.