SD vs. Mutually Agreed Combat II

[darrianation]

Bear in mind, I'm writing this as a soldier that has buddies in the Great Sandbox now...

How are dozens upon dozens of UN resolution violations "unprovoked?"

As an ex-JKD guy, surely you can appreciate the value of a stop-hit. I don't want to hijack the thread or turn it into a "case-for-war" post, but I know for an eyes on fact that we had more than enough justification for liberating the people of Iraq from Saddam, and for ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan.

Whether anyone wants to think Iraq had WMD or not, they did. We found some chemical weapons, but it was far more important for the press to publicize the naked and embarrasses POWs at that time than show the canisters of sarin. Sure, that find was a small quantity, but that kind of "project" isn't undertaken for small quantities, and there was a lot more somewhere.

What's more, I have to question this line of thinking. Hermosa, you mentioned in another thread the quote from Einstein. Preparing for war and preparing for peace...you know which one. Can I ask whether or not you think any of the 3000 or so victims of the attacks on 9-11 saw the rest of the world as fundamentally good and peaceful? Should we "turn the other cheek" on such things? If we did, rest assured, they'd slap the fresh one, and keep right on going until we were all gone. Just like you have the right (maybe even the responsibility?) to slap an arm bar or a choke on someone who's threatening your loved ones or your self, we have the right as a country to defend ourselves against future aggression. Sometimes, that means cutting off the nations that supply those who would attack us.

This nation was founded on the idea that we don't have to abide others trying to force their will upon us. Does it give us the right to become the bully? No. But it does absolutely give us the right to exert the full measure of the power we've gained to stop a threat that already exists. And since you brought up the subject of our attack on another, your analogy is far too narrow in scope.

We didn't attack Iraq because Saddam "knew" a guy who might attack us. He helped fund and equip those who attacked us. We didn't go after him because he might one day commit atrocities, he already had. We didn't single him out because we were worried about some kind of guilt by association. We knew full well the extent of his associations, right down to being able to chemically match the gasses he used to kill the Kurds in his own country with the gasses used by Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. It wasn't a matter of "maybe." It was simply a matter of how. That was adequately tested by blantantly ignoring every sanction imposed after his "unprovoked invasion of sovreign Kuwait." Violating resolution after resolution, 20 or more times, and all but daring the UN to step up to their threats was a matter of testing resolve. Since the UN didn't respond the way they'd promised, time and time again, we did.

Saddam was the bad guy. No bones about it. The taliban were not only bad guys, but were sheltering other bad guys. No bones about that either. And finally, our guys are over there doing a damned tough job, working for people who second guess every proactive decision because of backlash from doubters and naysayers here. Our guys are the good guys, and even the ones who don't support the war are over there fighting in it, for every one of us. They deserve your support, if not your outright admiration.

You may have your thread back now. My sermon is ended.

I was also a soldier once and young. My forward duty station was in the Philippines with my main AO (area of operations) in Asia and the Middle East. I was present for many briefings that took place for Saddam and his evil torture and terror machine. I have seen video of Saddam’s troops torturing and brutally murdering children in front of their parents and other siblings. I have seen what his chemical weapons did when they were testing them on innocents. My blood boiled Watching his loyalists line up innocents and mowing them down with machine gun fire, or marching up and down stabbing them to death. This as well as many other accounts of terror, torture, and fiendish atrocities Mr. Hussein has committed made me want to do something.

Finely we got the chance to take him out, but George SR. did not have enough balls to stand up against world opinion and the folks over at the U.N. and go after Saddam. Many people were left upset at this. Saddam was continued allowed to continue his reign of terror against his own people and against innocents around the world over many more years.

I remember being at an observation post along with a small team of indigenous soldiers we had trained outside Baghdad thinking how badly I wanted to go in there and kill Saddam, but we were never allowed too. Now Pres Bush Jr finely did it, and again every one is mad about it. I think putting the reasons for doing so upon WMD was and is a bad idea, but have no doubts that we have found some and there is still some there. Also have no doubts he has been behind many actions and plots against Americans and American interests here and abroad. I can’t say I agree with all Bush has done, but I can agree the world will be far better off without Saddam Hussein in it.

[jubaji]

....AND, me and my goverment are willing to finally listen to some of what you have to say. I can't guarantee that we will all agree, but we are ready to make the effort to end the separtist, intolerant, my god is better than your god, mentalities of yesteryear. We are also willing to admit, that maybe we've been a little bit stingy and horded a few things. We are willing; not to give up our way of life, but to come together as a global village and discuss more efficient management of resources and sharing. We know the time has come to embrace mankind and this planet as a whole and start living as one unit. Sorry again, for not being receptive to your problems in the past..lets make a pact right now to never again use violence as a tool to communicate.

.

Whew! Crack a window or something!

[Hermosa]

Hey man..I missed the 60's. And I truly believe, had I been there to make my contribution...everything would've turned out fine!

[DJColdfusion]

...everythong would've turned out fine!

Every Thong? Man they burned that sh*t back then.

Face the facts, you would have ended up on a beach in a 3rd world country smoking a little bit o'natures goodness.

[Hermosa]

Sorry I edited too fast..good joke though man!

[Hermosa]

Face the facts, you would have ended up on a beach in a 3rd world country smoking a little bit o'natures goodness.

OH!..Hell man, I did that last weekend, maybe I WAS there in my past life

[Uber_Tap]

People act as though we are to blame for the worlds problems. Either we offer to much of ourselves and influence the culture of others, or we sit on our wealth and don't help enough. How can we win? We can't, we are the only true super power left and people hate Goliath.

The only issue I have with our approach to dealing with terrorism is that we are to soft. I embrace the idea of the rest of the world being affraid of us. I think we take the Machiavelli approach, make the world either love or hate us, no in between. As the wealthiest country in the world we will never be loved by all, so make those that don't love us fear us. The next Musslim terrorist attack should be quickly followed by a few smart bombs being dropped on Mecca, just so they know we are paying attention. People that have love for nothing can't be intemidated. They claim to love only their religion, so hit were it hurts. Harsh, I know.

I respect those that have a "no war for any reason" perspective on these issues because they have taken a side. While I disagree completely, at least they have made a decision about how they feel. It's the middle of the road people that scare me.

[darrianation]

Terrorists discovered some years ago that attacks or assassinations of persons or objects that represented the target like the government or some other organization that they felt as tyrannical did not get them the desired effect, so they moved on to attacking innocents and vulnerable targets that yielded higher desired responses to public opinion. This paradigm shift excreted tremendous amounts of fear in the public while excreting extreme pressure on the government or other tyrannical organization wile creating fewer risks to themselves.

Studies have shown there has been a substantial degree of mental illness among terrorists. This is not to say that all or most terrorists are madmen but nor is it true that they are the most courageous and consistent of their generation, or the most deeply motivated ideologically. They are also not the most religious but many have personality disorders like ASD (anti-social disorder), So this complicates matters when trying to combat them. They don’t listen to reason and many enjoy what they do, for pride recognition, fame, and etc.

What is the future of terrorism? “We are not fighting so that the enemy recognizes us and offers us something. We are fighting to wipe out the enemy.” Abbas Mussawi, head of Hezbollah in Lebanon. I think this is a very powerful statement and pretty much sums it up. They don’t simply want us to leave them alone but they want us destroyed. Every day the terrorists are developing new tactics and recruiting new blood to carry out heinous acts against whoever they feel the enemy is.

Clearly the united nations measures of condemning terrorism, denying funds and financial support, as well as embargos against terrorists nations and supporters of terrorists has failed miserably. So, we need to develop better more workable tactics and philosophies.

Up to now our policy has been to convince the terrorists and their sympathizers that their goals and methods are faulty and are not going to work. Or, by not allowing their aberrant actions to give them what they want. It’s the whole psycho-social condoning thing we see all the time, except just like with criminals here who suffer from anti social personality disorders it just doesn’t work very often. Truly fighting terrorism by pointing fingers, condeming, and embargos do not work.

My personal opinion on it, there needs to be a better more cohesive international plan to identify, target, and destroy terrorist groups where ever they maybe. Don’t allow fear to dictate this policy (like the French, Spanish, and Saudis) and to use as much information sharing and cooperation as possible to hasten our Resolve to destroy funding, states who protect them, as well as destroying the actual leadership and as many individual terrorists as possible.


When I was in the Military our approach was three pronged

1) destroy them- This means by killing the terrorists, but it also means dismantling their chain of command, Hunting them down especially in places where they feel safe and killing them and their leaders. Destroying their support through Psy-ops, deception, and interrupting their financial support by freezing their accounts arresting money launderers, and etc.

2) Not allowing any positive results from their abominable actions- Do not cave in to their coercion, to their murder, or demands.

3) Modernize them- Many different modalities go into this such as making them wealthier, giving them more conveniences, more education, which leads to better jobs, better medical care, Women’s rights and human rights, this gives them less reason to support the radicals. Of course this has its own consequences on society, and culture. This will give them a smaller support base.

Failures come from political correctness and lack of resolve which is a backlash of public opinion.

Remember the differences, when we go to war against them we target the bad guys and their infrastructure, and it’s true that innocence will be unintentionally killed. However in stark contrast they intentionally target the innocent as a means of increasing the terror effect.

The world needs to unite on this and stop acting like the French, Spanish, and the Saudis and go after these people. Negotiation, appeasement, and ignoring, only strengthens their will, and give them power. We need to have the will, resolve, and capability to unite and go where they live, where the sleep, and where they feel safe and destroy them.

But we cannot do this unilaterally we must come together with resolve. Their are no simple answers, and we have a long and dangerous road to travel.

[Uber_Tap]

Mike, you are 100% correct, respect is much better than fear. As for my comments on bombing Mecca, that was kind of tongue in cheek. I wanted to provide our Tulip sniffing, tree humping friends with an idea of the horrific anti-terrorist policy that we could pursue, versues the freedom friendly plan of attack we have taken.

I also think the WMD argument was crap, be it Bush's fault or the fault of the intelligence he was provided. We should be in the middle east right now though, and we should absolutely be trying to push our influence into that area as best we can. He just shouldn't have used that as the reason.

The loss of American and Iraqi lives is terrible, and of course no one wants that. Aside from that though, what's the down side? Are people in the middle east going to hate us? I think we can safely say they already do so no love lost there.

Here are a few of the upsides.

1. We have a friend in that part of the world, either out of love or necessity a friend none the less.

2. We have a society that will serve as a template to those around them. These people have been oppressed and have no concept of what it means to be free. Some will say we are forcing our values down their throats, but that's not it. You don't know that they want to live under strict religous rule, and you don't know if they want to be free of it. At least you are allowing the people of those countries to see what it means to choose what you believe rather than being told what you believe.

3. Capitalism and Free Trade. I know that money is the end all be all evil, and the pursuit of it makes you an evil person to the libs. Keep this in mind though, wealthy countries don't want war in that part of the world. Aside from all the decent human being reasons to not get into a war, it f's up their money. Once you have had a taste of the good life(or what is percieved as the good life) you never want to go back. Say what you will, but it's true. I'd rather they worship money and leave me alone than worship Allah and blow up Americans.

4. Oil. This probably isn't popular, but this will eventually help secure oil for our country. I don't care that the idea of oil being a determining factor for this war offends some, it's a necessary evil. You may be content with driving 1 cylinder hydro electric cars, but I like my Jeep, I like my air-conditioning, and I like having gas prices low enough so that I have enough money to buy other crap. I am a die hard capitalist and I don't appologize for it. Like most Americans I work my arss off to have what I have, and anything that makes my money go a little further works for me.

I certainly don't think we should go to war with countries just for their oil, but if it is a small benefit amongst a lot of other solid reasons I also won't lose sleep about it being in the equation.

[EmptyneSs]

the bombing mecca thing was lame.

yeah everyone says how bad saddam was. no duh, nobody ever questioned he was a bad person. however he wasnt any threat to the usa. isnt it kinda wierd how sadddam really wasnt a threat, so we invaded iraq, yet north korea has been known to be armed with nukes for a while now?They have been trying to strong arm the usa for a while now yet we havent done shit about north korea and we got tons of forces over there chillin. the reason for that is because north korea is a real threat,unlike iraq, and they aresitting across the ocean from us with tons of long range missles that can reach our coasts.

dont u guys think it would have been better to focuse more of our forces in afghanistan instead of iraq? our soldiers still face a guerilla war in afghanistan but u barely even hear about afghanistan anymore. we got 2 wars goin on right now, not just 1.



hey what about us pretty much saying the UN means nothing by us going to war? didnt we have a pact with all those countries and all those people? isnt that just blatantly throwing that in the faces of all our allies and saying hey we can do whatever the **** we want, yet u all have to obey rules?

oh by the way, all those terrosts arent muslim. they say they they are, but anyone who is down to kill innocent people, blow himself up in a crowded bus full of kids, and do that kinda shit isnt a muslim, he is insane. islam is about peace, its about being kind, humble, and compassionate to all. true muslims are the kindest people u will ever meet, and they dont look at people as different, or try to stare eachother down and pull shit normal people do, they see everyone as sisters, and brothers. all the negative shit u hear about muslims is the nutty ass fundamentalists. its just like christianity. u got some truly kind, good christians our there, then u got whack ass nutty ones, the bible thumpers, the fundamentalists.

theres a christian priest who comes to my college campus some days and stands in the middle of the outside eating area and preaches the most racist, hatefilled, anti gay sermons ive ever heard. this guy stands there for an hour and preaches to the students around how blacks will go to hell, all muslims are evil and should be killed, how gays are all going to burn in hell and whatnot.this guy believes in his shit so much too he walks around giving people pamphlets and all kindsa nonsense. i look at this guy and know he is insane. i dont look at him and say, wow **** christians, they are all full of hate.

btw i personally dont beleive in any religion, but i do like reading about religions. i think islam and buddhism are the most interesting ones. i went to catholic schools my whole life until college, and that shit wasnt too crackin. that was some fundamental shit as well, they would force us to wear uniforms and they would make everyone go to the church, and they would tell us when to sit and stand, and when to answer, llike some nazi/cult shit.

there are all kinds of fundamentalists, they are the small minority that are ruining it for everyone else and it sucks. its like back in school when the whole class would get punished or get more homework because a couple jackoffs in the back wouldnt be quite or some shit.

also another thing i wanna mention ( i know i may piss people off with this, but im really not trying to) is some of our soldiers. alot of people who go into the army arent outstanding young men. allot of them are young scared insecure people who were picked on as kids and now think if they join the army and get to hold a big gun that they are somehow tough and real man. these kids were picked on all there lives and played D&D all day night and now they are sent over to other countris and are doing all kinds of whack shit. u have shit like male US soliders raping male iraqi prisoners, shooting up everything in iraqi neighborhoods like there cattle for target practice, stealing from iraqis. this again is the small few who ruin it for everyone, and disrespect honerable soldiers.

love and peace

[Uber_Tap]

To emptyness' point, we do do have some Christian crack heads. Let us not forget the Neo-Nazi's or the Klan who claim they are doing gods work.

Now that I've done by good deed for the week(I kind of agreed with a liberal, it was painfull but I'm dealing), I'm tired of people saying these guys don't represent Muslims. If Islam is such a religion of peace then why the hell are there so many of these crazy bastards blowing themselves up? There is a general sense of hate that exhists with a big majority of these folks against any non-muslims. I acknowledged that we have some wackos doing things in the name of Christianity, but certainly not to the degree of the peace loving Muslims. HandtoHand is on the money, we did have the crusades 500 years ago, but humanity has evolved since then every where but in most Muslim communities. Say what you will, but we need to get these folks on the fast track to capitalism. They need to focus there energy in a more productive way to say the least.

Korea is an entirely different issue all together. North Korea doesn't have a history of sending people loaded with explosives on missions to blow themselves up like the peace lovers do. North Korea is trying to position themselves in a way to force other countries to remove the sanctions that have crippled there economy. They want money and prosperity so they are playing a game the world already understands. They certainly have the means to cause destruction in the world with there nukes, but they understand the consequences of using those weapons. Not only will they be met with a type of retaliation that will cripple them, they will not have achieved there goal. They are a state with asperations to become a world player. The world has something to hold over their heads.

By creating a free Iraq we have a Democratic state in the midst of chaos. The hope is that democracy will be demanded by the people in surrounding states, thus making the extremist muslim an endangered species. I don't know that this is the best course of action, but I have yet to hear anything better.

As for dying so that you can have 72 virgins waiting I think Dennis Miller said it best. After a few Virgins, aren't you going to want some pros?

Just one of the many schools of thought that we can offer the Musslims.

[EmptyneSs]

h+h its funny how u misconstrue my posts and the things i say to use em in ur personal attacks on me, yet u say im angry and disgruntled and mean. just becase u are upset about what a jackass i made u look like in the marijuana thread, doesnt mean u have to bitter about it. but just like in that thread, u dont know what u are talkin about in this one either. those terrorists may claim to be muslim, but people who kill innocents are anything but. if u cant tell the difference between the 2, then u really are as dumb as everyone thinks u are. im sorry if ur ignorant, hatefilled ass cant tell the difference between fundamentalists and regular people, but then again u havent even reached puberty yet so we dont expect much.

also i aint takin sides here. i dont beleive in any religion. but i aint gonna hate on people just because there is a small minority out there who wants to **** shit up for everyone. there are fundamentalist in all areas of life, and these people take everything way too far. they dont represent everyone though.

[Uber_Tap]

The innevitable personal attacks have begun. May both of your virgins be stricken with immaculate herpes.

[EmptyneSs]

yawn^^^

there he goes misconstruing shit again. but hey, i guess it makes him feel better.

[Uber_Tap]

I've decided that I enjoy conversations on this forum with the following 3 people the most:

1. Mike-Mike's always even tempered and never ill willed. You just seem like a good dude Mike

2. Emptyness-You are a strong willed tree hugging hippy, we need people like you in the world to keep people like HandToHand from blowing the world up

3. HandtoHand-You seem to be pretty much balls to the wall with most of your opinions. You keep tree huggers like emptyness from hand-cuffing us while others try to kill us.

Mike, to answer you question about how I feel about the war I don't know what the best approach would be. This clearic that secured the peace agreement seems to be a blessing and a curse all at the same time. He seems to have the same type of influence that the Pope has over Catholics. If he uses this influence to better the lives of his people and to secure the future of his country, I think he will be a blessing. It also scares the hell out of me that he has that much influence in the country. The events in Iraq will have a direct impact on our presidential election here, and the thought of Kerry being President makes my ill. I'm not disgusted at the thought of a Democratic President, in fact I didn't really mind Clinton. Kerry is fake as hell, and seems to believe in nothing. What ever roll this guy plays in Iraq, I just hope it's one that favors Bush in the polls here.