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winning through throwing
CKD, your post reminds me of another very important difference between Judo, Wrestling, and it sounds like Sambo too versus BJJ. In Judo, Wrestling, and Sambo throwing an opponent with a high amplitude throw can result in a win. In Judo this is done through leverage throws, such as hip throws. In submission or no holds barred wrestling there is the body slam, double legger, pile driver, DDT, or suplex. Imagine some of the stuff pro wrestlers do, but done for real--those things could easily maim someone. Many of those moves have roots in real no holds barred wrestling but are obviously modified to be spectacular looking and safely performed by tremendous athlete experts. Many of those moves that I call "martial wrestling" moves cannot be used in competition because you cannot stop them from seriously hurting someone--there's no "light" way to drop someone onto the crown of their head for example. Many combat experts have advocated "grounding" an opponent versus going to the ground with them and then engaging in "ground fighting." Judo, wrestling, and apparently Sambo acknowledge this point through the importance they place on clean takedowns. In wrestling, when on the ground you can pin an opponent or if you're in a position of disadvantage you have two choices: reversal or escape. Reversing means sweeping or flipping your opponent to gain advantage. Unlike BJJers, wrestlers see escaping to the feet to start over for the opportunity to takedown the opponent and gain advantage as a worthy strategy. Escaping to the feet is a huge part of wrestling. Wrestler often instantly try to escape to their feet if they are taken down instead of attempting reversals. This is because of the importance placed on the top game in wrestling. BJJers tend to want to stay on the ground once there, and if they are in a position of disadvantage they tend to work ON THE GROUND for reversal or an escape to the guard, but not to the feet. This is a huge difference in IMO.
As a side: it is interesting to study martial arts history. You'll find that most "striking" arts, such as chinese boxing, western boxing, and even karate used body slam throws to ground opponents. These throws were eliminated from the sport versions of these arts. These martial arts were designed for combat, not sport fighting. Traditional karate was like atemi waza. Some of the surviving texts that memorilize Okinawan Karate discuss the use of body drops and throws. Before the sport of "boxing" there was a long tradition of puguilism that involved clinching and slamming, dropping, and throwing and stomping as well as headbutts, gounges etc... These arts used non-sacrifice throws as an extension of striking. Once the oposition was grounded they were finished (if they weren't knocked out or killed from the throw) with strikes from a standing or kneeling position, but ground grappling was avoided. We have not seen this grounding strategy in MMA (except to the extent that "ground and pound" might fall into this category), and it is not really allowed in most MMA. In other words, you don't see many people body slammed and then have their head crushed under the heel of their opponent etc... I'm happy to see this strategy making a sportish come back in striking competitions, such as shoot boxing and some of the K-1 stuff. Sriking historians sometimes argue that throwing/slamming is a form of striking (because it utilizes concussive force rather than restraining holds) and argue that true "grappling" is more like traditional JJJ where persons are arrested with arm twists and such. In the minds of these striking historians, grappling would also include the newaza that makes up the most of BJJ. I don't really care about where to put throwing/takedowns/slams on the striking/grappling graph, but I know that it is effective. Later.
CKD, your post reminds me of another very important difference between Judo, Wrestling, and it sounds like Sambo too versus BJJ. In Judo, Wrestling, and Sambo throwing an opponent with a high amplitude throw can result in a win. In Judo this is done through leverage throws, such as hip throws. In submission or no holds barred wrestling there is the body slam, double legger, pile driver, DDT, or suplex. Imagine some of the stuff pro wrestlers do, but done for real--those things could easily maim someone. Many of those moves have roots in real no holds barred wrestling but are obviously modified to be spectacular looking and safely performed by tremendous athlete experts. Many of those moves that I call "martial wrestling" moves cannot be used in competition because you cannot stop them from seriously hurting someone--there's no "light" way to drop someone onto the crown of their head for example. Many combat experts have advocated "grounding" an opponent versus going to the ground with them and then engaging in "ground fighting." Judo, wrestling, and apparently Sambo acknowledge this point through the importance they place on clean takedowns. In wrestling, when on the ground you can pin an opponent or if you're in a position of disadvantage you have two choices: reversal or escape. Reversing means sweeping or flipping your opponent to gain advantage. Unlike BJJers, wrestlers see escaping to the feet to start over for the opportunity to takedown the opponent and gain advantage as a worthy strategy. Escaping to the feet is a huge part of wrestling. Wrestler often instantly try to escape to their feet if they are taken down instead of attempting reversals. This is because of the importance placed on the top game in wrestling. BJJers tend to want to stay on the ground once there, and if they are in a position of disadvantage they tend to work ON THE GROUND for reversal or an escape to the guard, but not to the feet. This is a huge difference in IMO.
As a side: it is interesting to study martial arts history. You'll find that most "striking" arts, such as chinese boxing, western boxing, and even karate used body slam throws to ground opponents. These throws were eliminated from the sport versions of these arts. These martial arts were designed for combat, not sport fighting. Traditional karate was like atemi waza. Some of the surviving texts that memorilize Okinawan Karate discuss the use of body drops and throws. Before the sport of "boxing" there was a long tradition of puguilism that involved clinching and slamming, dropping, and throwing and stomping as well as headbutts, gounges etc... These arts used non-sacrifice throws as an extension of striking. Once the oposition was grounded they were finished (if they weren't knocked out or killed from the throw) with strikes from a standing or kneeling position, but ground grappling was avoided. We have not seen this grounding strategy in MMA (except to the extent that "ground and pound" might fall into this category), and it is not really allowed in most MMA. In other words, you don't see many people body slammed and then have their head crushed under the heel of their opponent etc... I'm happy to see this strategy making a sportish come back in striking competitions, such as shoot boxing and some of the K-1 stuff. Sriking historians sometimes argue that throwing/slamming is a form of striking (because it utilizes concussive force rather than restraining holds) and argue that true "grappling" is more like traditional JJJ where persons are arrested with arm twists and such. In the minds of these striking historians, grappling would also include the newaza that makes up the most of BJJ. I don't really care about where to put throwing/takedowns/slams on the striking/grappling graph, but I know that it is effective. Later.
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