Differences in grappling styles?

[shirase]

Ive been thinking about training in a grappling style and I was wondering what are the main differences between them? Is judo basically the same as jujitsu and bjj the same as jujitsu but with more submissions? Also I was wondering about wrestling and maybe about the russian one(samba?)

[Hermosa]

Now please understand..I mean no disrespect. But how is it that you can even find your way to this forum and know to post on the MMA & BJJ part...but you don't know the difference between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?

[Strepto]

Ive been thinking about training in a grappling style and I was wondering what are the main differences between them? Is judo basically the same as jujitsu and bjj the same as jujitsu but with more submissions? Also I was wondering about wrestling and maybe about the russian one(samba?)

Ok, i'll try to quickly explain.

Judo: Lots of throws, ground work, some chokes, some submissions.

Japanese JJ: mostly standing locks, throws, some punches and kicking. Not really a grappling style.

BJJ: takedown, lots of submissions, chokes and work on positioning.

Wrestling: There's many style of wrestling but mainly it involves a lot of clinch work, and pinning your opponent down. Not alot of submissions and chokes. Wrestlers mostly like working from the top while BJJ guys can easily work from top and bottom.

Sambo: To keep it simple there is 2 type of sambo. Combat sambo and sport sambo. When you look at sambo you see judo throws, BJJ ground work and lots of leg locks.

Remember this was a short description...

[shirase]

"Now please understand..I mean no disrespect. But how is it that you can even find your way to this forum and know to post on the MMA & BJJ part...but you don't know the difference between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?"

To tell the truth i havent seen very many Judo fights/matches except like the 5 seconds of olympic judo on tv.

Anyways thanks for the replies

[shirase]

Judo or Jujutsu?

Ive done some looking and Ive found that I basically have 2 options, Judo or Ketto ryu ju-jutsu. Im just wondering which one do you suggest I should join?
The judo club is basically like any Judo club, but im wondering do you think this Jujutsu would be good? here is the site, please tell me what you think!

http://www.kettoryu.ca/root.htm

oh, heres the judo association website www.judoalberta.com

[EmptyneSs]

alot of japanese jj includes the throws of judo as well as all the other stuff. jjj is for self defense, while judo is a sport only. also some jjj systems have lots of grappling as well.

[shirase]

yeah i am kind of leaning towards jujutsu because it seems more balanced. but still ive heard plenty of good things about judo

[Bjjexpertise@be]

BJJ: takedown, lots of submissions, chokes and work on positioning.

More like no work on positioning. So many bjj practitioners rely on the guard and don't even bother to advance up the hiearchy of positions...just my 2 cents.

[CKD]

Judo-Good throws and decent groundwork. Only has chokes and armbars. Its self defense stuff like Atemi waza is o.k.
BJJ-Horrible takedowns and lots of guard work on the ground. Little positioning and little lower bod subs. Self defense techniques in the system are never practiced against resisting opponents. Some schools teach strikes meant to distract the opponent to get into the clinch. The strikes wil do no damage.
Wrestling-Good takedowns and pretty good positioning on the mat.
Kurash-Fast and good throws but no groundwork.
Sambo-Depends on who you ask you will get a different answer. Ask a judo guy and they will think of amazing pickup throws and of the amazing groundwork that revolutionized the judo world. Ask a BJJ guy they will think of leglocks and ground and pound. Ask a wrestler of any style from the former soviet union and they could give you a good description. Sambo has good takedowns combing judo, wrestling, and native russian wrestling style. Its groundwork has a good amount of guard work but does not overdo it like bjj and it also has many leg locks, so they play the guard differently than a bjj dude due to that danger. Sambo players prefer the top position instead of the bottom. It has many throws which lead straight to a sub which is a plus. It has the best sd techniques out of the styles and includes many strikes.

Shuai Chiao-Has some interesting takedowns, strikes and little groundwork.

Russian judo-basically sambo tailored towards judo rules.

[Serrada]

Did you join one? I think they both look good. What are you looking for. The JJ may be more well rounded. If your looking more for strikes, weapons and such.

Though, typ. a BB in Judo is hard to beat using any style. Solid tech., very hard to take down, great body mechs. and conditioning.

Id recommend the Judo and later if you want striking add thai boxing and if you want weapons add FMA.

[Spookey]

Judo and Jiu-Jutsu

Dear Sir,

Here is my honest opinion, Jiujutsu is the better option for over all self defense if you are new to the martial arts. However, if you have fundamental abilities from a previous system then Judo is the better bet to round your knowledge. Again the soul focus of Kodokan Judo is on throwing and controlling you opponnent, both standing and on the ground. Also, the overall conditioning gained from Judo is second to none!

Personally, I am a student of Traditional Taekwon-Do which has good emphasis on striking and some trapping, releases, throws, locks, ect...however, I use Yudo (original teachings of Jigoro Kano) to give more creedance to the closer ranges. Helping to round my ability at the various distances!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[shirase]

Actually, I went to the JJJ place, but it was like 45 minutes away in a fairly bad neighbourhood. My mom is in control of the car and she decided that wasnt a good choice. After a bit of searching I found a great place pretty close to me. Im taking the "murphy's combat grappling" class now. www.combat4u.com
I went to the trial class and it seemed good to me. Its basically BJJ with other stuff mixed in. Alot of the class we did sparring, then they taught me a couple of armbars. The worst thing about the class is that im 15 and weigh 115 pounds, and most of the other guys are in there late twenties and 30s, and weigh like 200 or more.

[cakegirl]

So many bjj practitioners rely on the guard and don't even bother to advance up the hiearchy of positions...

These are the people that don't spar against good training partners who can pass their guard! Hahahaha!

I used to be like this, because I've got strong legs and I could hold other beginners in my guard, but once I realised that most people with a bit of training behind them could pass most guards of people smaller/weaker/more female than them, I started working on other things.

Now I look for the "lightning submission" that I can get as soon as I get someone in my guard, or failing that, I look for the sweep, and to move up the order of positions.

Cakegirl

[Shoot]

Grappling style differences

My first post here. I study BJJ/Submission wrestling (no gi stuff). Judo was used as another word for JuJitsu until about the 1950s. Judo was supposed to be the best from various JJJ schools in Japan for a complete system of all JJJ. After WWII Judo became a sport. As a sport Judo stresses "throws" versus wrestling style takedowns. Although technically a "takedown" may be a throw I'll use these terms differently here. Judo throws are categorized in 2 categories: sacrifices where you go to the ground with your opponent and ones where you remain standing and the opponent is on the ground, such as hip throws. Judo favours the non-sacrifice throws. "Takedowns" as used in western wrestling largely involve picking a person up as in a double leg takedown or a suplex and putting them on the ground under control. Judo is very well organized and is a complete martial art that has a very well developed ground game (at least on paper so to speak). However, as a practical matter Judo largely became a throwing game. However, now that BJJ is so popular many Judo schools are bringing back their "newaza" --ground techniques. My criticism of Judo throws (I prefer western wrestling takedowns) is that they often rely on a high center of gravity as in someone standing almost straight up. Most people instinctively sprawl when clinching making Judo throws very difficult. Also, Judo throws takes years and years of practice to become really effective IMO but when learned can be devestating.

Western wrestling goes back thousands of years. At one point wrestling was submission wrestling and very brutal but over years became a game of pinning. The reason for stressing the pin was that once someone was pinned they couuld be easily killed and wrestlers always fought for position first before they sunk in their submission, crank, crush, stretch etc... Wrestling theory is somewhat different from Japanese "wrestling"--Judo or JJJ. Judo and Wrestling both use the principle of leverage and are "soft" arts, however wrestling theory probably relies more on control and completely overwhelming the opponent. Judo/JJJ was designed to level the playing field for smaller practicioners (and it does when used properly) whereas wrestling capitalizes on using a the wrestler's speed and strength to completely overpower, overwhelm, and CONTROL. Wrestlers throughout history, going back to Greece and before, were the strongest people on earth. Compare that to BJJers who have had great success with very normal, everyday builds. Wrestling favors takedowns (except for Greco-Roman which looks a lot like Judo without a Gi) whereby the wrestler either shoots or clinches, takes control of the opponent's center of gravity and then topples or in some cases "slams" the opponent to the ground. If Judoka are masters of "throwing" then Wrestlers are masters of takedowns. Unlike BJJers who want to go to the ground as long as they can at least start from the guard, Wrestlers resist being taken to the ground for the most part. Wrestlers want to take their opponent to the ground, not be put there. Wrestling theory heavily stresses and involves positional dominance--favoring the pin. When wrestling changed to a sport of pinning and submissions were removed, the game changed to the point of a flaw. I personally really like the wrestling standing game of the takedown, but the ground game is really lacking in that it is ok to flop to the stomach but not ok to flop to your back in the sport of wrestling. Wrestling also involves many more painful holds that are not necessarily submissions, such as headlocks, nelsons, bear hugs, cranks, twists, and stretches. Many wrestling holds are not used in JJJ/Judo/BJJ as some involve brute strength to be effective which kinda goes against the leverage principle heavily stressed in JJJ. For example, you'll rarely see a BJJer try to bear hug or scissor lock the breath out of someone or put someone in a side headlock. "Hook" or "Catch" wrestling is an American style of submission wrestling, but again break down positions (exposing the back) are seen because the pin is a win. It is hard to ever tell whether anything like the guard was ever used in ancient wrestling. I know of one style of mid-eastern wrestling that uses a scissor lock position that is something like the guard, but that's about it. Again, wrestling is largely a "top" game.

BJJ has an incredibly developed ground game and a very well developed guard that allows smaller practicioners to defeat much larger opponents. Although BJJ involves obtaining positional dominance, as a matter of practice it is not as overwhelmingly smothering as wrestling (usually). BJJ schools often don't spend much time on takedowns as they just want to get to the ground and that is pretty easy to do if you favor the guard. Compare t hat to wrestling where takedowns are practiced like crazy. BJJers often heavily use the guard whereas modern wrestlers in MMA competition usually use it begrudgingly as a transitional position to save themselves from being pinned and struck etc.... Whereas Judoka are the masters of throwing, and wrestlers are the masters of takedowns, holds and pins, BJJers are masters of submissions. IMO one of the weaknesses of many BJJers is that they often rely on submissions to a fault. One of the things I see in my study of BJJ and in "rolling" is that people just fire submission attempt one after another until they get one. This may work for them a certain percentage of time and so they become reliant on it. BJJers may find that if they try to submit someone say 12 times one might stick. I also see a lot of BJJers forcing submissions. How many times have my fellow BJJ brothers had to fight off triangle attempts where their opponent is using all their strength to force those legs around and squeeze when they just don't have it. As people become more aware of submissions and how to prevent them or escape them, this rapid fire submission attempt game loses effectiveness.

My personal favorite is what is currently developing among grapplers, "submission wrestling". Submission grappling is the best of wrestling -- the takedowns and strategy of overwhelming dominance and stressing of position, and the best of BJJ--the ground positions and submissions. THe subtle difference IMO is that in Submission Wrestling ground position is heavily stressed. BJJ is supposed to be "position then submission" but as I've said BJJ is often practiced as "pull guard and try to force submissions." The really good BJJers don't do that of course, but you have be careful where you study so as not to pick up that habit. Also, submission wrestling does not rely on the gi which drastically changes the game. One more subtle difference between submission wrestling and BJJ is technique learning and learning of principles. Traditional JJJ was taught by "wazas" or a series of techniques..if he does this, I do that etc... BJJ does a lot of that. I see BJJers learning 10 different sweeps, reversals, passes etc... when in reality they may all be subtle variations on principles. This leads to the idea that BJJ has thousands of techniques,when in reality all combat relies on just a handful of principles. Wrestling is taught and learned much more on principles with personal variations. This is a difference with western martial arts in general IMO. Wrestlers often invent their own stuff that is really just personalized moves that are based on a handful of grappling principles. BJJ is learned more as a series of "wazas" as if every techniques should have its own name etc... Wrestling involves a lot of improvization IMO. I personally like that about wrestling and think BJJ is often made unnecessarily technical.

I won't discuss Sambo as I don't know enough about it.

These of course are gross generalizations. For example, I've seen Judo schools that develope their guard to the point of being like BJJ. So shop around and be careful not to end up somewhere where people are not technical in their grappling. Some places are full of ego and can be dangerous. Avoid places where people are greedy with their techniques and they just go to class to practice what they know and not really to learn with others. Be careful and enjoy whatever grappling style you choose.

[CKD]

Good post shoot. Although the judo takedown game and ground is changing because of the Russian judo players. They devoloped a strategy of using more wrestling style takedowns to get the opponent to the ground but and then using the highly developed ground techniques they defeated people easily. People call this style of judo which uses better groundwork and wrestling takedowns Russian Judo. But the other players are catching up learning the unorthodox takedowns and groundwork of the Russian judo style. It is also good that you didn't comment on sambo due to lack of knowledge. Most people will pretend they are experts on the subject instead of admitting the truth. I have done bjj, bit of wrestling and judo before I converted to sambo and russian ma. Sambo is an art that combines judo throws, wrestling takedowns, and soviet wrestling takedowns. On the ground it has something similar to the bjj guard game but its a bit different because sambo allows leglocks and bjj does not take leglocks into account that much. Sambo players prefer the top position though and they have incredible top position and submission game compared to most bjj schools which focus mostly on guard work and less top stuff. Sambo also includes strikes, weapon defense, and a few other things. There are two main types of sambo competetions, Sport sambo which is like submission wrestling with a sambo uniform. Absolute victory is made from a high amplitude throw which leaves you standing and your opponent on his back and from a submission. Combat sambo is basically mma.