Comments regarding arguments against BJJ

[IPON]

bjj is just kosen judo isnt it?

Basically, only Kosen BJJ and maybe one could argue Sambo are the only styles from prewar judo

[Tant01]

I agree with he essence of your post but I think it is equally unfair to say BJJ is not a MA....
....

"Martial" as it pertains to killing enemies and ACTUAL warfare has been gone from martial arts for a long time. There are exceptions, of course. Martial training must include (at the very least) the weapons your attackers might realistically use. Fists, feet and techniques are all good but (steel) weapons are better. (for killing) Most BG know this better than many artists.

[Tant01]

bjj is just kosen judo isnt it?

It is much closer to Kosen Judo than it is to Ju-Jitsu. Kosen judo still teach throws but specalize in Newaza. BJJ has sweeps and reaps but few(if any) standing throws. So no, it's not really Kosen Judo either but it would be interesting to see the two styles compete NHB.

[shamster]

Boxing clinching. I think the difference is that in boxing the clinch occurs strategically and is not a natural progression as perhaps in a regular fight. The boxer is fatigues, frustrated or is trying for dirty shots.

That was one of my previous points. I mentioned that whether intentional or not, clinching does often happen in boxing. If two fighters are bad, it happens because they are bad at striking and clinching is a result of closing the distance due to ineffective strikes. If they are good fighters, clinching can also happen as a tactic too. So thank you for reinforcing my point.

And yes, once someone is on the ground, it can be a ground fight depending on what at least one person does. However you end up on the ground, as long as you are still functional, grappling skills come into play if you have any.

Regarding the Hackney fight against the 600+lbs sumo guy, I didn't see a lot of technique there. To me, it was aggressive striking that brought him down. To say that Royce couldn't beat him is not really accurate either. I don't know that, and neither do you.

Also, I don't think the time limit thing is a factor. True, a lot of street fights don't last that long, but the point is that whatever helps you survive works, time limit or not. On the streets, things can move fast, but sometimes, things may not. There are times where your opponent has no friends backing him up, but just wants to take you out. However long Royce wants to fight is up to him. However, I think it's fair to say that no striker was completely successful against him. He has lost several matches yes, but he has not gotten his ass completely kicked in, and that is because he was able to use his grappling skills well enough to at least protect himself somewhat. And so he threw in the towel after the Kimo fight. Fact is, he still armlocked Kimo.

Also, I never said BJJ is the "ultimate art that can beat anyone." If you had read my posts, you would've noticed that I mentioned over and over again that I do believe cross training is important to be a top fighter today. I get tired of typing this, but since some of you can't seem to understand, I will say AGAIN that I believe BJJ is the best style to train in if you can ONLY train in one style for the time being. And you're right...bjj techniques take a little longer to learn effectively than some simple striking techniques such as those used in MT. But I think the time put in to learning BJJ is well worth it. This is my opinion however, and my other point was to point out some errors in bjj criticisms. I know bjj has a number of weaknesses...just not exactly those weaknesses that are always repeated on this forum. If you don't agree with my opinion, then ignore it. One of my friends studies Aikido, and he believes that is the best. Another friend thinks Wing Chun is the best and most effective style. While I have a different opinion, it is just an opinion. It would be a never ending debate if I believe in pitching bjj as the "best" art to anyone I know. Also, please not the title of my thread. It is "comments regarding bjj criticisms." If anyone inteprets it to mean "bjj vs. all", then I am sorry, but that is not my intention, but it is also not my problem if you get worked up over it either.

[shamster]

Think about all the people that wrestle in high school and how much more common that is than any martial art. They'll definitely have some knowledge of dealing with grapplers and ways of doing things.

My point was that MOST people are not prepared to deal with grappling. What does your example of high school wrestlers imply? That MOST people have wrestled in high school? I went to a fairly large high school, and a much larger university. I work in the largest major city in the US also. So I can honestly say I've gotten to known a lot of people in my life to some extent. I can assure you that MOST of them have no experience in grappling.

But what's to prevent him from slamming you in the nuts when you take him in your guard? If you try to triangle choke him, whats to prevent him from biting deep into your thigh and tearing out a good-sized chunk of flesh? Not to mention if you go for the shoot immediately, he might decide to pull that knife he had hidden and give you a few inches of steel right through your ribcage.

That is almost a non-issue in this discussion, cause no martial art can completely prepare you for these x-factor scenarios. Whether you study bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, kung fu, etc, you can still fall victim to dirty fight tactics that an opponent may suddenly use on you.

I'd rather be confident I can at least put some hurt on multiple attackers while getting my ass kicked rather than curl up and admit "OK, there's too many, I'll just lay here like a fish and get my ass handed to me."

Well, you can have you confidence then. I would rather not. I certainly won't give up and let my ass get kicked voluntarily if I was confronted by multiple attackers, but because I don't believe I can take on multiples no matter how well trained I am, I would try extra hard to avoid situations like this if possible. If that doesn't work, like Mike Brewer, I would rather have a gun. And even with a gun, you better not be too overly confident either. Did you know that a man with a 7 yards away can close in on you and slash you in 1.5 seconds? It's true...drills have been done to prove this. Not everyone is good enough to draw a gun cleanly and fire fast enough on multiple attackers in that time, much less react fast enough unarmed.

[shamster]

If not, then stop dicking around and get yourself a good, dependable, accurate gun and go train with it.

I have to agree with that statement. I highly recommend a good reliable 1911, followed by a Glock or SIG depending on your tastes and what you shoot better with.

[IPON]

Also, please not the title of my thread. It is "comments regarding bjj criticisms." If anyone inteprets it to mean "bjj vs. all", then I am sorry, but that is not my intention, but it is also not my problem if you get worked up over it either.

Dude, I am not worked up at all I thought this was a discussion. If you refer to my first post I stated train what you like, be open and realistic and who cares what others think.


I agree that clinching happens alot in boxing, but again its in context you act as though this will always happen when I tell you there are other reasons you see this in boxing and you don't see this in PRIDE.

I did not say BJJ was difficult to learn I sated all grappling arts not everyone has the stomach or the desire to be good, the striking arts by comparision are much easier.

Just out of curiosity who do you train with

Again whether intention or not you are turning his into a BJJ is better than all, but thant's my opion and your right to do it right. I made point that you did not answer. You are intitled to think how you will if you are being short sighted I hope you don't have to pay for it, but probably not becuase to "work" in teh largest city in the US and know everyone's martial background and fighting prowess.

Good luck Kid.

[shamster]

I made point that you did not answer. You are intitled to think how you will if you are being short sighted I hope you don't have to pay for it, but probably not becuase to "work" in teh largest city in the US and know everyone's martial background and fighting prowess.

What question did I not answer? I am not one to dodge question. But this thread is getting long, and with all the replies, I can't keep track of everyone's replies to me. So please tell me what point you made to me that I didn't answer.
Also, I am not quite as short sighted as you may believe. I am well aware of the need to cross train to be a very complete fighter. And just for your information, if I could have my way, aside from bjj training, I would like to train in muay thai, learn some more takesdowns/throws and defense from those same throws by studying some judo (there, I admit one weakness in bjj), and learn some joint locking in aikido. And AGAIN, the reason I focus on bjj now is because I believe it's the best to start with, if you can only do ONE type of training. But that is my opinion anyway. And that wasn't even the original point. The point of this thread was to analyze a few of the common criticisms against bjj. One of which is that groundfighting should be avoided, which I don't agree with. But this doesn't come from someone who only believe in bjj either. There are several styles of groundfighting aside from bjj.

By the way, I wasn't implying that you were the one getting worked up. But it does seem some people are not happy that they feel I am turning this into a "bjj vs. all" thread. And if that really is how some of them feel, well, nobody told them to read this thread either.

[HtTKar]

you keep saying that if there was only one style to learn it would be BJJ. However, you accept that you would like to cross-train in other styles.

You know many MA styles deal with grappling, striking, and weapons in their traditional forms (non-sport version). These styles already cross-train. Why limit yourself to a style that teaches only grappling?

So from this, I think you mean that grappling is more important than striking skills. But This is not the same as saying if somebody could only train in one style it should be BJJ.
Perhaps one of BJJ's biggest weaknesses is that its participants dont realize that most other martial arts also teach grappling.

[Tant01]

...Perhaps one of BJJ's biggest weaknesses is that its participants dont realize that most other martial arts also teach grappling.

The "Jiu-Jitsu" de Brazil is based on four assumptions. First, the attacker would probably be bigger. Second, he would be attacking. Third, whoever was getting hit would probably clinch to avoid getting hit some more. And fourth, sooner or later, one or both people would fall down. They say they emphasize ground fighting because it is more effective and more realistic for streetfighting or self-defense.

I think it's because they never learned how to throw. Nevermind a weapon or more of them than you, eh? Games have rules, fights don't... ASSUME what you like. BJJ is more about marketing than reality!

[HtTKar]

BJJ is more about marketing than reality!

Agreed.
If this was not the case, BJJ would teach more than one dimension of fighting. As is, it is for sport only.

[koto_ryu]

My point was that MOST people are not prepared to deal with grappling. What does your example of high school wrestlers imply? That MOST people have wrestled in high school? I went to a fairly large high school, and a much larger university. I work in the largest major city in the US also. So I can honestly say I've gotten to known a lot of people in my life to some extent. I can assure you that MOST of them have no experience in grappling.

Depends entirely on where you are. Many many people in the big wrestling states such as Ohio, Colorado, and the like are into wrestling. The bigger they are, the more likely there were involved in wrestling. It all depends on what kind of crowd you run with as well. There's very few wrestlers on the chess club, but out of the majority of the people I associate with whether in work or as acquaintances have wrestled in high school or know some form of grappling (Hapkido, Jujitsu, etc.).

That is almost a non-issue in this discussion, cause no martial art can completely prepare you for these x-factor scenarios. Whether you study bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, kung fu, etc, you can still fall victim to dirty fight tactics that an opponent may suddenly use on you.

I noticed you never touched on the part about the weapon. Going in for a sudden shoot or immediately trying to grapple is a big mistake, as it's going to up your opponent's danger levels and he'll react accordingly. It's best to keep him underestimating you as much as possible until it's time to react. A good punch is much faster than even the quickest shoot, not to mention you can throw a heckuva lot of them in a short period of time with good training and can do some nasty things BJJ can't (kyushojutsu, for example, or busting his nose).

Not everyone is good enough to draw a gun cleanly and fire fast enough on multiple attackers in that time, much less react fast enough unarmed.

I own some but never carry them. I'm not that terrified of a gun encounter nor do I feel the need to.

[shamster]

you keep saying that if there was only one style to learn it would be BJJ. However, you accept that you would like to cross-train in other styles.

What's not to understand about this? Ideally, cross training is the way to go, but there are some things in life where you can't have it all. Just like my situation. I only have the time and money right now to train in one discipline. Since I can only choose one, I think bjj is the way to go. Is this so hard to understand?

[koto_ryu]

What's not to understand about this? Ideally, cross training is the way to go, but there are some things in life where you can't have it all. Just like my situation. I only have the time and money right now to train in one discipline. Since I can only choose one, I think bjj is the way to go. Is this so hard to understand?

I'd rather do ninjutsu or regular jujutsu myself, this way I would learn how to fight stand up, throws, submissions, takedowns, and groundfighting as well as kyushojutsu and some dirty tricks thrown in for good measure. It's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, we're just pointing out why it may be a bit unfounded.

[EmptyneSs]

True that not every state allows carrying concealed. But if a person needs a self-defense system to be the answer to all woes, and it has to be the kind of system that will beat anyone, any time, then move to a state that does allow it. Chances are, if self-protection is that great a concern, the person could stand to relocate anyway. Besides, even if guns are illegal in your state, I'd wager that some knives aren't, and a folding knife in the eye will keep just about anyone from stabilizing that mount. All I'm saying is that the debate about which is better between grappling and striking is pretty pointless. When one needs strikes, striking is better. When you need grappling, grappling is better. The whole concept of the argument is a lot like asking a carpenter which tool is best to build a house, or like asking a basketball player if it's better to dribble than to shoot or defend. They're all part of the whole, and no one is better than another. As far as sheer self-protection is concerned, weapons trump empty hands 9 out of 10 times. Fighters that can adapt, develop the right mindset, and can escalate to whatever level of force will offer a definite solution right away will be effective, no matter what style they choose. It's like we've always said, it's a lot more to do with the person than the style, and training methods are more important than techniques.

mike, based on ur experiences, if someone could only choose 1 hand to hand combat art to study, which would u say would be the best one to choose for self defense ?