Couture Vs Lidell 2!

[bodhisattva]

I don't agree with you regarding arm locks. Most wrestlers I know can't pull them off any easier than your average person. Submissions is an art that is perfected over time, as part of the BJJ, Judo or whatever delivery system. I haven't seen Kevin Randleman, Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman or very many wreslters pull the same arm locks/submissions that are reminiscent of MMA today.

"POSITION BEFOR SUBMISSION"

Wrestlers are MASTERS of gaining position. Tell them, "don't offer up your back" and they are set. Wrestlers are not dipshits. I'm not even an ex-wrestler, and I can find arm locks. They are not some weird mystic-voo-doo - just fight with some people, hunt for them, and voila! they are there more and more each time.

Granted, wrestlers at the HIGHEST LEVEL fighting Vale Tudo men, and Submission experts, may NOT pull off arm locks against these guys. Sure. But that is a very extreme example. My buddies that wrestled easily pulled arm locks on boxers and fighters alike.

You just don't know many wrestlers. That must be the case. Wrestlers have the delivery system. Pull an arm lock on him, and he just learned an arm lock. It's very true.

[Tom Yum]

I have to agree with boddhi on this one.

Wrestlers can deliver. They can get the takedown and get control. If taught, they can pick up submissions really quick and apply them.

Wrestling training is rough in the physical contact sense. It'll make a man of you real quick.

[pstevens]

Basically, what you guys are saying is the rate at which a person can pick up submissions is greater in a wrestler, which isn't true or provable. Wrestling does not equal submission. Granted wrestlers have a good base, I'm not denying that, but the rate at which a person understands and picks up grappling, especially submissions, all depends on individuality, not wrestling experience, which varies between individuals as well.

BTW - Not offering your back is easier said than done if you're rolling with more experienced grapplers. I'd say you can't just tell someone to do it and they're set, it takes time. I wouldn't call myself an expert rolling with wrestlers, but we have enough of them at my gym for me to know that everyone learns at a different rate, regardless of what background they come from.

I don't deny that wrestlers don't have better takedown skills, and their positioning can be good from the get-go, but that's not always the case. It really depends on how focused a person is. But then again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

[bodhisattva]

Dude. The wrestlers you have known are just pussies. Honest. I hate to be vulgar, but it's so true. You met some uncommonly freaking sissy wrestlers.

You go up against a state level competitor, and let me know how it turns out.

And let him know, before the match, that wrestlers can't submit others, and their takedowns are about all they have going for them. He'll consider it a service.

Then again, for all my big-mouthed squawking (don't take offense), I have to admit, that it does really matter on the individuals focus. But, in general, wrestlers have enormous focus. It is odd to meet a "sometimes wrestler". You are on the team, or you aren't. And if you are, they are pounding you if you don't perform. Shit, they are pounding you if you DO perform.

I haven't met any "unfocused" wrestlers.

But, I too, appreciate your point of view. thank you.

[Tom Yum]

You forgot to mention Randy Couture, Dan Severn, Don Frye and others. Wrestlers are strong and very physical grapplers!

The reason why they don't pull subs like the other guys is because wrestlers will get the top position. Its much easier for a wrestler to do what he knows how to do - takedown, get top control. The only difference is that in MMA he has to rain punches down once he gets top control.

However, I have seen Severn tap a guy with the key lock. Don Fry tapped Tank with a rear-naked choke.

The BJJ guys can do quite well on their backs, so if the wrestler gets top position its not over, the BJJ guy can leg up for an armbar, guard sweep, kimura and many other techniques. The wrestlers need to learn the BJJ game as well.

[pstevens]

Dude. The wrestlers you have known are just pussies. Honest. I hate to be vulgar, but it's so true. You met some uncommonly freaking sissy wrestlers.

To me you're a pussy... That much is obvious - Wait a minute, you're that wrestler who couldn't get armbar! That's okay, just breathe....

Let assess you and tom's findings:

1. Wrestlers are automatically better at submissions than everyone.
2. Wrestlers are stronger than everyone.
3. Therefore, wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet.

Great, everyone should quit what they're doing and wrestle... Have a nice day.

[bodhisattva]

To me you're a pussy... That much is obvious - Wait a minute, you're that wrestler who couldn't get armbar! That's okay, just breathe....

Let assess you and tom's findings:

1. Wrestlers are automatically better at submissions than everyone.
2. Wrestlers are stronger than everyone.
3. Therefore, wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet.

Great, everyone should quit what they're doing and wrestle... Have a nice day.

flirt. I am flattered.

[Tom Yum]

Let assess you and tom's findings:

1. Wrestlers are automatically better at submissions than everyone.
2. Wrestlers are stronger than everyone.
3. Therefore, wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet.

Great, everyone should quit what they're doing and wrestle... Have a nice day.

No, I didn't suggest everyone should wrestle.

I think I stated that wrestlers are really good at what they do - get takedowns and get control on the top position. Wrestlers are probably some of the strongest grapplers and are tough; getting 'turked' in a folk-style match and later cross-faced into another position isn't excatly a walk in the park.

BJJ guys are good at what they do - they can grapple well from a variety of positions on the mat, can work from their back and use leverage and position to execute painfull submissions.

[SamuraiGuy]

Actually your right, everyone should give up their grappling and take wrestling.......