So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[BoarSpear]

The beating that Van Damme received that I was talking about came from Chuck Zito, president of the New York Hell's Angels at the stripclub Scores. If you've watched Oz, you've seen him as Chucky Pancamo.

yeah, trust me im WELL AWARE of a BIKER kickin a Martial artists ass. it isnt as uncommon as many ma would like to think... somehow the idea that bikers study those same arts and MIGHT just be meaner ....or more used ta dirty fightin eludes them somehow. you know fightin WITHOUT rules

[SamuraiGuy]

Wow man someone beat up Van Damme... holy crap... I always thought his jump spinning back kicks were invincible...

do you really think van damme, a movie star, with obvious movie fighting is an accurate representation of what MMA people train... like seroiusly.... thats like saying.... (just an example) ...

Lindsay Lohan takes kung fu.... she got beat up by the head of one of the worlds largest biker gangs... therefore.. ukes reality based self defense system.. (wahtever you do do) is crap

Doesnt pan out...

Also Id like to adress this.. another point you made to me...

"No disrespect, but you come across as one of the many little dudes here that defend weight classes because you know what you do won't work without them. Not one of you addressed the weight classes with any competency. And if your sh!t doesn't work without them, what's the point of training in it then? It seems the biggest difference in what we do is that I don't ever train in any way that I wouldn't use to defend my life. Many of you here do, and that's why there's so much talk of what you would do differently in case you had a fight where a guy was trying to kill you."

you say I "come across" as saying this... well I dont come across as anything if I want to say it ill say it.. stop putting words in my mouth.. err... on my screen.. this is like the fourth time youve assumed something about me, or said I believe something with no knowledge about my opinions on it...

As for weight classes I believe in MMA they are valid and should be used, I like the idea of an open weight class.. but no sanctioning body will allow that.. so we get weight classes im ok with that...

Thats not to say, if I ever have to fight someone larger than me, I will look at him with my hands down and say.. "you are not within 10-15 pounds of my weight.. we cannot be violent towards each other until you either gain or lose weight"

You also say, that many of us train in a way that we wouldnt use to save our life.. im not sure about you.. but I would use my bjj to save my life, or my muay thai, or my wrestling.. or my krav maga... If I have to use a sweep from bjj to beat the guy I will, if I have to throw a head kick I will (not that I ever would as Im not flexible enough to have formidable head kicks) or if the guy was wearing a winter coat, I wouldnt hesitate to use it to choke the life out of him... the things you are learning in mma, as well as RBSD (more so in RBSD) can all be used to defend yourself... dont know where you got the idea mma people say, these techniques are for the ring, these are for the street.

I'd also like to point out that you say "this wont work in the street, that wont work in the street, you should take a more effective street art"...

Have you ever considered were not all running around being scared, fearing for our lives every second of the day... I take BJJ, and MMA, because its fun, I love to do it, and possibly I will be the UFC welterweight champion one day...lol (if I remember you ill mention you in case your watchign bud)...

I would think alot of MMA guys, and bjj guys do it because they like to do it... street maybe secondary or even tertiary... maybe its... love of the sport, fitness, street, or hell love of the sport, fitness, impress ladies, street... or maybe in boar spears case its... "Like to roll around with men, love of rolling around with men.... love rolling around with fit men.." (haha just poking a little fun at ya)


lol I also like the fact that you think canada is just a bunch of hockey brawls... and then call us sissies... with the type of beer you make down there.. the nerve... we do get in real fights up here too, "eh"...

or are you like the president of harvard.... who congratulated canada after believing we had finally gotten 32 miles of paved road...

[LoneHusky]

I don't have to post with anger. My points are made and valid. I'm not the one who lives in Canada and because I've won a hundred hockey brawls I feel that ice skating is the most effective of all martial arts. In truth, most of you seem very catty and feminine, which would explain why you're so eager to lay down on your backs and put another man in your guard.

Hey, whatever floats your boat, but I noticed that inquiring minds didn't wanna know what school to go visit to go get their chins checked. I guess you're still grappling with the fact that your insults aren't as effective as debating tools as your instructor might have led you to believe.

I'm honestly not angry just annoyed by you. I'm very catty and feminine but that's not the topic asshole. Christ ever hear of a run on sentence. You're a rambling man and I've had just about all the psychobable I can take for one night.

[jubaji]

the record player is broken, bitch

If many of you here really feel that I'm wrong about my ideas and conclusions, I know many schools that I can recommend that you visit and try out your so-called theories of combat. Obviously a healthy debate is not a cup of tea that some of you would like to drink from, so go put your MMA skills to the real test! Most of you won't because you cannot afford to have your eyes opened or your faith, and I stress faith, shaken.

I'm putting this out here now for those of you who say that there is no way to test your skills without going into the street looking for a fight, which none of you high moraled men of the martial arts would do. There is a way. There are schools that would welcome people like you to come in and "enlighten" them as to what they're doing wrong. And they would gladly enlighten you over and over again once you've tried. All without having to put your life on the line, just your faith.

But if you get discouraged, which is just a politically correct way of me saying getting your @ss tore up, in a school where the fighters aren't even trying to kill you, how do you think you'd fare on the street?

I know most of you won't test anything as you're internet warriors, but for those of you who might and have acted tough here ... remain true to your character. Go into a school and behave as you have here. Tell them that you feel that you study a style that is superior and you're ready to show them. This way, their attitude will be closest to the one you'd find in a street opponent. Then, work your stuff! Show them how MMA or BJJ has made you a bad man without you ever having to fight for real in your entire life.

And if you don't do this today, you will do it eventually. At some point in his life, a real martial artist wants to know for himself if what he's dedicated his blood, sweat and tears to works. And not just under fixed conditions. He wants to know that he's a survivor and not just someone who exists because he hasn't run into a jam so far. So all the geniuses here who said you can't test your skill without foolishly risking your life are wrong. You can test them by going to a school that will be willing to hurt you and are skilled enough to do it.

Oh not this bullshit again. One-note Charley plays again.

Let's see if I can crack this enigmatic code:

I guess I now tell you to find a university in your local area (you might have to exit the stripmall for a bit for this one) that has an NCAA wrestling team. We'll be kind and allow even div 2 ('cause after all - its just you). Go in and issue a 'challenge'. You must demand that you be allowed to use all of your deadly arsenal of eye-pokes, pinchy-pinchy, and even biting. Anything goes, as they say. Whatever boxing or BJJ you think you know - its all fair game. Go for it.

Now I know that one day in every martial artist's journey the road of life will turn upon the forks of decision and lead to the rotary of perplexity that can only be navigated with the all-wheel drive traction of the bullshit of banality by over-blown, self-important, repetitious shit-bags like you, so I'm confident that you will take up the gauntlet of this mighty quest and go forth cloaked in a plastic Gi with a cape made from an old beach towel wrapped around your pencil neck and glitter in your hair.

If you are very lucky you will be laughed out of the room before you are hurt too badly.



And then I guess you'll complain that had you been allowed to spread some broken glass around the floor and ...

[Tant01]

.......
I know most of you won't test anything as you're internet warriors, ......

And if you don't do this today, you will do it eventually. At some point in his life, a real martial artist wants to know for himself if what he's dedicated his blood, sweat and tears to works. And not just under fixed conditions. He wants to know that he's a survivor and not just someone who exists because he hasn't run into a jam so far. So all the geniuses here who said you can't test your skill without foolishly risking your life are wrong. You can test them by going to a school that will be willing to hurt you and are skilled enough to do it.

.....

Most folks with half a brain won't pay money to be hurt. Some folks here have been there and done that. Hospital bills and court time, not working to pay the bills while you recover... Sure, go play that.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy

Seriously dude, when did anyone, me or Boarspear, say that Van Damme is an example of MMA? Either you can't read well, or I'm blind because I cannot find that statement. Van Damme was only brought up because he like MMA gained popularity because he was showcased. Van Damme in movies and MMA in the Gracie friendly UFC enviroment.

And you do come across a certain way. You don't have to say something to be reminicient of something else. The guys who defend weight classes know better, but because of personal reasons they will argue anyway just like you. You've agreed on just about 90% of the things that I've written, but you have been acting like a broad ever since we had words that one time. You're still cool with me, but let it go, dude.

NHB can exist without weight classes, they just couldn't televise it. The first 3 UFC's existed without weight classes, but then certain politicians began opposing the UFC to garner votes. But NHB events could very well exist without weight classes. They could broadcast from Japan or some other foreign venue or just release the events straight to DVD. And if they did, people would start to see just what I've been saying. The little guys couldn't just be gung-ho just because they're tougher than someone their own size. They'd have to actually think, not just fight, otherwise it would be over real quick. When you have a 130lb guy facing a fit 230lb guy, even if the 130lb guy has been totally dominant in his division he's going to get the worst of it unless he really knows what he's doing. Those toughman tactics we see would do what? Get him KTFO. Weight classes make the showcased styles seem more effective than they really are. Let someone Royler Gracie's size Thai box someone like Mirko Crocop or let Royler Gracie grapple with Fedor. Does anyone think that Royler is not greatly skilled? No. Do they think he would win either of those matches? No.

And I did say that many of you don't train in a way to save your lives. Just because you learn some manuevers doesn't mean you know how to use them once someone has gone all out aggressive on you. And once that happens and you realize it, you're adrenaline will kick in and your mind will be racing. And if you get clocked one good time and haven't been hurt bad before, you're going to panic because you're in a new place and don't know how to handle it. I'm watching the Luke Cummo and Anthony Torres fight in the UFC on SpikeTV as I type this, and if you think that this horrible, horrible display of brawling is how you should train to fight, then you're instructor is one hell of a salesman. Yes, they're throwing muay thai low kicks and knees, but with little results. They're trying to throw punches that resemble boxing, but fail miserably. They clinch when they're tired, and fall to the ground when they're hurt hoping to turn it into a ground bout. This is toughman tournament fighting with BJJ thrown in. Call it MMA. Call it NHB. Call it whatever you like. The skills demonstrated by anyone calling themselves a MMA fighter are toughman at best. Anyone that is better is because they mastered their particular range. CroCop was kickboxer before he ever jumped in NHB events and Nogueira was a BJJ master before as well.

I'm aware that we're not all running around being scared, fearing for our lives every second of the day. Its not about being scared or brave. Do you know how many brave people get their ass' kicked and killed everyday? Its about being prepared. If you're doing something for the fun or sport aspect of it, then so be it. Nothing wrong with that. But then you should know that if you're not serious, then neither is your training. Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat much more than the others that you mentioned, but it won't give you that "sporty" feeling that you seem to be looking for. Self defense isn't supposed to be competitive. It is supposed to be your will imposed on someone else. Its the point when you realize that someone is a threat, and you don't have the time to fcuk around with the guy. Not with wrestling. Not with BJJ. And not with a boxing or thai boxing match. If you can't use a technique to take him out quick, then don't learn it.

If you've studied Krav Maga as you've said, then I'm a little surprised that you feel differently. But its cool though.

[Uke]

Jubaji and LoneHusky

If either of you wrote just one thing about MA it would probably kill you. Obviously you're here as comic relief. Otherwise you'd write at least one post a month having something to do with actual martial arts. But you're BJJ sheep, and you're more content with spreading Gracie propaganda than actually learning anything. And now LoneHusky has been reduced to criticizing my grammar, because he has nothing left about martial arts that he can talk about without revealing his ignorance.

But the curious thing is that I don't post on any of the BJJ sheep topics. Just here. But you sheep always manage to wander over here, to a place where you claim nothing of value is being said. Why is that? Is it because you're not getting enough attention on the "Why BJJ is super groovy" topic? Jubaji and LoneHusky were both lonely, but now they've found each other. So instead of worrying about what I'm saying, why don't you two work out your frustrations in jubaji's guard, and call it what it really is: the missionary position.

PS Jubaji, you don't have to give me your zip code. I wouldn't waste my time to find a school near you to prove anything because you don't have the one thing that defines a fighter: Heart
You're barely worth the internet insults, but if stalking me on this forum feeds some pathetic fetish you have then so be it.

[mpossoff]

Hi,

Jumped in here kind of late and don't have time to read the whole thread... but I agree with Uke. Hopefully Uke and I are on the same page, as I said I don't have time to read thru the threads.

In REAL life self defense situations BJJ is not a good self defense art, as a stand alone.

Krav Maga in my opinion is the best way of self defense, more importantly PRATICAL self defense.

In a real life situation, and I ahve been in a couple, I want to take out the opposition as fast as possible.

The quickest way is NOT to go to the ground, especially if there is more than one opposition.

A REAL life situation doesn't happen like you see in UFC or in BJJ matches, that's mostly sport.

What I'm talking about is REAL situations. An example being you're walking to the parking lot at night after work, getting ready to get into your car and someone confronts you.

This just happened to me a couple of weeks ago in Disney World. Was with my wife and kids standing in line to get on a ride. A couple of young punks bumped into me and turned it around and said "why the f**ck did you bump into me"! This was in a croud of people. He started pushing me(in front of my wife and kids). I told him I'm on vacation and don;t want any trouble and I(yes) apologized for something I didn't do.

I was ready to strike and strike hard if necessary and had the confidence to do so. By taking him to the groeund would have wasted alot of time and be useless.

Marc

[Big Kahuna]

Marc,

What's this society coming to when you have to worry about confrontation at Disney?!?! In any case, well done with diffusing the situation. Thing is, I think I would have "bitch slapped" the f'er, and, I am a stoic person.

In any case, BJJ would not have been effective in that situation. A nice cross to the chin would have. Thing is, the law doesn't see it that way and we have to react instead of act to these situations. Although, I hear that if you say, "I felt threatened...", it is good enough in most cases.

Yes, there are times when BJJ is good and when it isn't. Krav Maga is some wicked stuff, but I wouldn't rely on that w/out ground training either. My personal opinion is to knock someone out as soon as possible and, if not, take it to the ground. Heck, everyone that I've seen going to the ground, w/out training, automatically turns their back to you to get up. End of story!

[mpossoff]

Marc,

What's this society coming to when you have to worry about confrontation at Disney?!?! In any case, well done with diffusing the situation. Thing is, I think I would have "bitch slapped" the f'er, and, I am a stoic person.

In any case, BJJ would not have been effective in that situation. A nice cross to the chin would have. Thing is, the law doesn't see it that way and we have to react instead of act to these situations. Although, I hear that if you say, "I felt threatened...", it is good enough in most cases.

Yes, there are times when BJJ is good and when it isn't. Krav Maga is some wicked stuff, but I wouldn't rely on that w/out ground training either. My personal opinion is to knock someone out as soon as possible and, if not, take it to the ground. Heck, everyone that I've seen going to the ground, w/out training, automatically turns their back to you to get up. End of story!

If I wan't with my wife and kids I would have bitch slapped him.

The point I am trying to emphasize is in REAL, REAL life situations and NOT the ring, BJJ isn't pratical. I do believe in BJJ, but not as a stand alone art.

I don't believe in going to the ground FIRST, but believe in knocking someone out ASAP.

Krav Maga is wicked and truthfully is the most pratical "system" for self defense. KM does have ground training.

In the ring and for sport, BJJ might be better or not.

You see in the ring it's much, much different than a real life situation. In the ring you have more time, space, etc, etc..if you know what I mean. If the guy is a BJJ'er in the ring you know he's going to shhot/clinch, etc.

In the "streets" you don't know, things happen differently.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood in Philly, where the woman fought just as good as the men, seriously. I've been in riots, gang fights and BJJ as a sole art I would have gotten busted up pretty bad.

Striking was the key and being good with your hands.

That was a long time ago.

Marc

[Tom Yum]

When you have a 130lb guy facing a fit 230lb guy, even if the 130lb guy has been totally dominant in his division he's going to get the worst of it unless he really knows what he's doing. Those toughman tactics we see would do what? Get him KTFO. Weight classes make the showcased styles seem more effective than they really are. Let someone Royler Gracie's size Thai box someone like Mirko Crocop or let Royler Gracie grapple with Fedor. Does anyone think that Royler is not greatly skilled? No. Do they think he would win either of those matches? No.

What's up Uke. The Gracies would never thaibox because they don't do much in terms of stand up. Royce Gracie however went 30 minutes with Severn and eventually tapped him. That shows the importance of size and strength, but also technique as Severn isn't just a powerlifter brawler with no skill.

I'm watching the Luke Cummo and Anthony Torres fight in the UFC on SpikeTV as I type this, and if you think that this horrible, horrible display of brawling is how you should train to fight, then you're instructor is one hell of a salesman. Yes, they're throwing muay thai low kicks and knees, but with little results. They're trying to throw punches that resemble boxing, but fail miserably. They clinch when they're tired, and fall to the ground when they're hurt hoping to turn it into a ground bout. This is toughman tournament fighting with BJJ thrown in. Call it MMA. Call it NHB. Call it whatever you like. The skills demonstrated by anyone calling themselves a MMA fighter are toughman at best. Anyone that is better is because they mastered their particular range. CroCop was kickboxer before he ever jumped in NHB events and Nogueira was a BJJ master before as well..

If you go strictly into what is called an MMA gym that has no definitive emphasis or specialty (grappling or stand up) usually the less experienced fighters have so-so boxing, muay thai skills at best and so-so grappling. I don't consider myself a decent fighter, but have been able to hold my own if not slow down some MMA fighters where I can sprawl and brawl. In other words, guys who haven't quite worked on their takedown abilities but have some stand up skills and some submission skills.

I have to agree on the master a particular range part.

[LoneHusky]

If either of you wrote just one thing about MA it would probably kill you. Obviously you're here as comic relief. Otherwise you'd write at least one post a month having something to do with actual martial arts. But you're BJJ sheep, and you're more content with spreading Gracie propaganda than actually learning anything. And now LoneHusky has been reduced to criticizing my grammar, because he has nothing left about martial arts that he can talk about without revealing his ignorance.

But the curious thing is that I don't post on any of the BJJ sheep topics. Just here. But you sheep always manage to wander over here, to a place where you claim nothing of value is being said. Why is that? Is it because you're not getting enough attention on the "Why BJJ is super groovy" topic? Jubaji and LoneHusky were both lonely, but now they've found each other. So instead of worrying about what I'm saying, why don't you two work out your frustrations in jubaji's guard, and call it what it really is: the missionary position.

PS Jubaji, you don't have to give me your zip code. I wouldn't waste my time to find a school near you to prove anything because you don't have the one thing that defines a fighter: Heart
You're barely worth the internet insults, but if stalking me on this forum feeds some pathetic fetish you have then so be it.

Who the **** do you think you are you ignorant homophobe? What makes you think I'm a bjj sheep? I'm not ignorant at all you punkass bitch. How can you say I don't have any heart when you don't know me or my style? How do me and jubaji both work out our frustrations in jubajis guard? I don't get your fucking reasoning. It just doesn't make fucking sense. WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU?

[SamuraiGuy]

Aaah but Uke, we havent agreed on 90% of the things... chalk that up as another assumption on your part... oh and just so you know.. I have no animosity to you whatsoever... I'm simply giving you my opinion.. guess you cant (no one really can) tell from typing.. but I'm not enraged or anything lol.

Now heres another thing posted by you:

"Its about being prepared. If you're doing something for the fun or sport aspect of it, then so be it. Nothing wrong with that. But then you should know that if you're not serious, then neither is your training. Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat much more than the others that you mentioned, but it won't give you that "sporty" feeling that you seem to be looking for. Self defense isn't supposed to be competitive."

You say if Im doing something for fun or sport, than its fine, but "If I know that im not serious, than neither is your training"... well... dont you think someone could be very serious about training for their sport... even if it is a combat sport... im pretty sure Fedor is serious when he trains.. I'm pretty sure Big Nog, Franklin, Couture, Lidell, Arona, Silva are all fairly serious when they train... even if it is just for sports...

I think you see training as serious when its for self defense... but training for sport is just a different thing than training for street, you can be equally serious training both.. and if I may say so Im more serious about getting better at the competition aspect of it than the self defense.

Its like training for football, or tennis, or soccer, or table tennis... how serious you are is relative...

Now for the second part of your quote...

"Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat much more than the others that you mentioned, but it won't give you that "sporty" feeling that you seem to be looking for."

I realize Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat... I picked at least that much up through my training in it lol... I also realize it wont give me a ... sporty ... feeling.. but even with mma im not looking for a sporty feeling.. im looking for the feeling of competition... I think its a bit different when it comes to combat sports...

Your last sentence was you were suprised I dont advocate taking a guy out quickly in a self defense confrontation... thats another assumption.. never gave my opinion on what I think is best in a street fight... and you know what I do think knocking the guy out, or disabling him as quickly as possible is best in the street confrontation... I also happen to think knocking the guy out as quickly as possible is best in mma...

The thing is I realize it wont always be so easy.... I may know alot of krav maga, but I doubt Im gonna knock a good boxer out real easy with a few strikes, whether they are too the groin or head or w/e... their striking and fight experience would be too good... they would see some of it coming... with that said... Krav Maga isnt about hurting the person as quickly as possible.. although thats often the case.. its about ending the confrontation with as little damage to you or your loved ones etc... whether thats kicking em in the groin and elbowing em a few times than stomping their head... or realizing you just cant hit this guy cause turns out you picked a fight with roy jones jr... you could plant him on his ass and take him out from there....

Krav Maga advocates getting to yoru feet as quickly as possible if youve been knocked down... however there are times when they realize control (clinch) / ground control are more effective...

If I was to walk out my front door and to find roy jones jr standing there telling me we are going to fight... im gonna try to take him down... (that is if he could catch me running back into my house)... this reminds me of something my krav maga teacher has said in the past... if you know your better on the ground.. and there is no one else around... and you can get them there ... do it.... theres no point striking with a superior striking.. when you can dominate them on the ground etc... what if someone jumps you in the bushes by themselves... ground is a viable option in some cases.. and although im not a big fan of assumptions haha... after the initial confrontation you could assume if they had a weapon (knife as in your original scenario)... they would have used it already.. or at least brandished it... either way their gonna try to stab you standing up or on the ground...

this is a pretty long post.. but only one more point...

you said that if I came to any number of schools you have trained at, where they teach Self Defense there are people who could hand me my ass... and you know what im gonna go with you are right on the money with that one bud.... I never said I was the best in the world..

heres the point...

I can tell you to go fight Fedor, or Cro Cop or someone like that.. and hes gonna hand you your ass, whether its the ring, or street....

(im assuming this is unarmed because im pretty sure I can shoot the people at the schools you know...)

Besides... you say alot of people here wont test themselves... or they wont call your bluff and come to a school and see what happens... well im not sure about everyone.. but im an 18 year old... I dont have the time or money to fly around fighting people to see if a guy on the internet was right... and im sure your right... im sure you know plenty of people who could kick my ass...

I doubt if I asked you to come fight my instructor you would hop on a plane and fly right over... but if your up for it hes looking for an opponent in the next KOTC.... although it may be someone from Miletich camp so you can take it up with them lol...

I also wouldnt think of asking someone to come fight my instructor cause why shoudl I assume he would want a challenge, take a challenge, etc.. not my place to accept/ lay down challenges for other people... think about it...

[jubaji]

But you're BJJ sheep, and you're more content with spreading Gracie propaganda than actually learning anything. .

So now I'm a BJJ sheep? Curious.

[jubaji]

omae wa otaku no okama

PS Jubaji, you don't have to give me your zip code. I wouldn't waste my time to find a school near you to prove anything because .

Oh I had absolutely no doubt that you would never take your own advice, because you'd rather hang around with your Krap Magma buddies telling each other how many ways you could do this and you would do that and playing with your little magic markers talking yourselves into believing you are something you are not. Keep doing what you are doing wind-bag, its your only safe option.