So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[SamuraiGuy]

I'd also like to adress boarspears points about self defense people that I forgot to add.

He said the self defense person wouldnt be getting attacked like the BJJ guy and that, although I think he is just as likely a target, I dont htink anyone walks aroudn with their gi on with a list of their MA accomplishements... but his ability to avoid situations is heightened. Once again its the mindset he mentioned..

oh no im actually agreeing with boarspear...

With my Krav Maga training, walking around downtown late at night I see more threats and see useful things if need be, I notice the crackhead (literally) in the alley beside us, while my friends are oblivious (none of us are from the city) and I notice the fact that after we walked past he got out of the alley, even if he did walk the other way.

When a guy tried to sell me speakers out of his van, I took into account the friend I had with me, the "salesman" friend in the car, the salesman himself, and the fact I was holding my longest key (car keys), in my hand, ready to shove it in the guys eye (no exxageration this was what I was honestly thinking). I also know my thoughts the whole time were.... try to get out of here without getting robbed, and without fighting someone...

Walking a little wider around cars, when getting into the car late at night, I note if there is anyone who will be walking behind me, or close to me...


Its not paranoia... its just you start to notice these things and take them into account, I love BJJ, (as well as other martial arts) but I dont htink it gives you this important mentality.

[BoarSpear]

Hrmmm we had a previous.... argument... lol... and I think you knew I did Krav Maga, well that is exactly what I've been training to get rid of in Krav Maga, that mindset, before you were saying Krav Maga wasnt all its cracked up to be , and now you say its concepts are good? Im a little confused... in response though, I dont train in BJJ for self defense... I do it because its fun, and If the planets align or something I can use it in MMA one day. I know which type of proper self defesne mindset you speak of.

HEHEHE yes we did but it wasnt about krav Maga...it was about mma guys "killing" a Navy S.E.A.L. in a street fight ... and mindset and training (one trains to kill people, one trains to beat them up) were the deciding factors there as well in my opinion if you remember.

my whole point is this...the moment you shoot in with the intent to pick up an opponent with an attack that carries the possibility of a head slam to the concrete, a possible death blow you opened the door to equally viscious counters which may be faster... the moment you begin that attack you may find a blade buried in your kidneys as you bend over to scoop or whatever target you present...when you attempt a possibly crippling or fatal move that is slower than the counter which is equally (or more deadly) you didnt choose the best weapon for the task...just the one you were taught and familiar with...those taught by sport players have different visions of reality fighting and dirty fighting than those trained to kill. and BTW the one second is not the time of a pro...James Keating draws his knife (fixed blade) on command and hits whatever color balloon you call out from an assortment of possible colors in 6 tenths of a second on average Im ashamed to say it takes me about 8 tenths of a second on average, but im working on it

i dont recall slamming Krav maga though...it isnt my favorite art (tai chi is ) ...i did spend 6 months attached to the Isreali Defense force in 1982 so i have a little experience with their fighting style and mindset...its a hell of alot different than whats taught here. i like any art that stresses awareness of your environment.

[Uke]

dkm

I still don't understand what Uke's recommendation is here.

My recommendation is to go out and find what is available in more than just your neck of the woods. There are many MA systems that have been refining their philosophies, approaches and techniques to be geared for street encounters. By street encounters, I mean situations that you might actually encounter, not the stiff, static lunging punches and robotic movements you see in most TMA. They address common attacks, several ways to deal with them, why you would use them, and why you wouldn't use other methods. There ALWAYS has to be an explanation. In NY there are many progressive styles, and the one that aren't are becoming more modern and progressive in order to keep with the times and competition.

In the mid to late 90's, BJJ started popping up in nearly every school. Not only because it helped address ground fighting and defense, but because no school wants another school to offer something that they don't. They'd lose students, and therefore money. In NY, practical application in the street has always been the top priority. Some who might live in Idaho or Ireland may not have these concerns because they live in rural places where everyone knows each other, and the most common crime is cow-tipping and public drunkeness. But for those who live in places where you pass by hundreds of people everyday just walking down the street, you need to be able to protect yourself and your family.

You must crosstrain. Crosstraining is a new concept to some of the people on this forum who think MMA popularized it, but there are systems that have been crosstraining in America decades before even JKD was created. Some systems have always put their focus on street reality, but these "new-to-the-game" guys who have never been hit, or had a gun put to their head don't know what reality is. They don't realize that adrenaline can make a man do funny things. Just seeing a gun or knife come out in a fight has made alot of men forget everything they've ever learned in that instant. And if you've never been in those situations of uncertainty, you have no idea what you're talking about. The best you can do is train for those scenarios so that in the event that they happen, something in your training might light a bulb above your head.

That's why when so many people from out of state talk about coming to NY, they get nervous. Not everyone, but the majority. And not just NY either. Any major metropolis in America. Chicago. Detroit. Los Angeles. Washington D.C.. Baltimore. Dallas. Atlanta. Because they know that crime is higher in the cities than in the suburbs, and they can be the next victim. If anyone has lost a friend or family member to violence in the streets, then you know several people who are afraid of the streets, if you're not one of them yourself.

Just make sure your system is modern and trains you to address violence as it happens. Do not train in a manner that says "switch to street mode outside of the school, but adhere by our rules inside of it".

[BoarSpear]

I'd also like to adress boarspears points about self defense people that I forgot to add.

He said the self defense person wouldnt be getting attacked like the BJJ guy and that, although I think he is just as likely a target, I dont htink anyone walks aroudn with their gi on with a list of their MA accomplishements... but his ability to avoid situations is heightened. Once again its the mindset he mentioned..

oh no im actually agreeing with boarspear...

oh no thats gotta burn huh?

i wasnt saying we're are less likely to attacked although awareness will deter those looking for easy prey...i was just saying we were less likely to be suprised by it, as we should have seen it coming.

glad to see you are starting to notice the threats around you...try looking to see how many knives you see clipped in pockets and inside waistbands...you might be surprised. firearms in the small of the back are also more common than you might think

[BoarSpear]

Just seeing a gun or knife come out in a fight has made alot of men forget everything they've ever learned in that instant.

HEHEHE...man is that ever the truth its very different to be in fire fight with lead flying everywhere than having someone pick you as a target to focus on ...when conflicts get personel the bottom can fall out for sure imagine a guy stepping into your path 8 feet away who flourishs a couple blades then puts them behind his back as he lowers his gaze and moves in ...you will feel your blood turn to ice...and if you arent mentally prepared you will freeze up and forget ALL your training.

[SamuraiGuy]

Posted By Boarspear:

"try looking to see how many knives you see clipped in pockets and inside waistbands...you might be surprised. firearms in the small of the back are also more common than you might think "

Im from canada eh, we dont have that here eh, lol... well we do.. just not where I live... one kid did get stabbed.. but in the arm, and the kid that did the stabbing well... he hasnt come back to our town since then...

In the city with the crackhead... you may have more knives and that, but the only place close to me that I think there would be guns is toronto .. and even then...

lol my dad always said ... when walking in the city late at night... people will bother the groups of two or three, not large groups, and not the person who walks alone, theres strength in numbers.... and you gotta watch out for anyone crazy enough to walk through the city alone at night.

GO CRAZY PEOPLE...

actually now that I think of it, my friend carries a small knife.... even with the knife I could prolly kick his ass though, that fucker....

[Uke]

Hi Uke,
Don't really agree with all your points.
BJJ is not the be all end all of combat, sport or otherwise (I don't think many people think it is). But then what art is?

When I roll I usually go for a dominant position & don't automatically pull guard.
There's quite a few throws/takedowns you can use in BJJ to plant someone that don't involve you going down, there's also takedown defence the two sort of go together ( not even gonna mention arm drags).

If I went down with someone in my guard on 'teh str33t' (assuming they've got better takedowns) then I might just open my guard & stand up, scramblimg equips you to get up quick!
Of course that's assuming I don't get ktfo on the way down!
My mate who only does BJJ was attacked by a larger guy at a petrol station,he tripped him & held him down until he was out of breath & had calmed down.
Your example of people in competitions not finishing quickly may have something to do with the fact that they are against other combat athletes?

Just out of interest what is your style & experience in martial arts?

Thank you for your comments, Tcell.

When you wrote:

When I roll I usually go for a dominant position & don't automatically pull guard.

notice the key word here is roll. You can only roll on the ground. And my point Tcell is that your objective in a self defense situation should be to stay alive, and your chances of doing that are dramatically greater on your feet than on the ground. No one here is challenging the fact that BJJ will equip people to be competent on the ground. But what I am saying is that going to the ground should be a last resort, usually because the other guy brings you there. But once you are on the ground, it should be a fight to get back to your feet while taking the least amount of damage.

You might ask "why"? Well its for the same reason that every self defense system teaches how to end a confrontation quickly: You have to be ready for what may come next. Its not that I disagree with you, Tcell. I believe that in a one on one situation with no weapons and no other people involved that a BJJ man could handle himself, like you described above. But we were speaking in terms of practicality, where most people carry weapons. And most fights are rarely one on one unless the people fighting know each other.

And your point about holding the man down until he was out of breath and calmed down demonstrates that when that sort of tactic is used, enough time elapses for other variables to come into play. Like maybe that guy wasn't alone, and his friend was getting ready to exit a restroom. Laying there is not conducive to a quick solution.

I have studied many styles as I have crosstrained for years.

But thanks again for your comments and the mature way you expressed them, Tcell. If you have any more questions or comments, feel free to post them.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy

To sum up:

Bjj doesnt have the best mindset for self defense.
In Ukes scenario the BJJ guy woudl most likely die.
In Ukes scenario anyone would most likely die.
BJJ is best ground style there is, it would end the fight most quickly. (If used with the proper mindset).
BJJ doesnt have all the tools for self defense, it is extremely good at one of the five things I say would matter in a streetfight.

Standup, Ground, Transition Area (clinch, takedowns, wrestling) MENTALITY, and physical size/condition.

Beautifully put.

Thank you for your comments and taking the time to understand what I have written. You obviously have mastered a skill that many here have not:

Reading ability

[LoneHusky]

Uke what do you practice? I'm just curious.

[JkD187]

uke i understand where your comming from when you say bjj is not the best choice for self defense .To tell you all the truth their is NO ART, NO ART is best for self defense...why well i will tell you,no art out there focuses on everything equally,every art has a name or association with some other art be it stand up or ground fighting or wrestling.What you should be doing when it comes to self defense is sampling everything that is trained realisticly against an uncooperative opponent and incorperating it in your arsenal, regardless of what its called,EVERYone is getting caught up in this uke vs everyone battle here and let me be a little translator for some people.Uke is basically saying bjj ALONE should not be your only thing for self defense hes saying you should be as well rounded as possible to handle yourself for everything.That dose not mean hes putting bjj down,hes stated over and over bjj is essential and it is,hes stating it shouldnt be your first choice but your last.this dose not mean hes saying silat is beter then bjj or w.e hes saying ad what you need from any art, me personaly i dont believe in an art,i believe in style:my own specific style that is suited for me made by ME,everyone should have a certain way they fight or they wouldnt be human.Moral of the story be prepared for everrything on the street and expect the unexpected.P.s uke i used a judo hip toss in combination with a bjj rear naked choke and i did it my own little way so you can say it was greg-fu lol,and the guy i beat was a college football player so im pretty sure he was in somewhat good shape .

[medic06]

Uke, stop attacking BJJ!!!! Why Judo, . . . eh, Jujitsu . . . . eh, . . . . BJJ has great techniques!!!!

[BoarSpear]

Posted By Boarspear:

"try looking to see how many knives you see clipped in pockets and inside waistbands...you might be surprised. firearms in the small of the back are also more common than you might think "

Im from canada eh, we dont have that here eh, lol... well we do.. just not where I live... one kid did get stabbed.. but in the arm, and the kid that did the stabbing well... he hasnt come back to our town since then..
.

DOH....i forgot youre canadian down here knives are common to put it mildly...the other day i went to the mall with a couple of students we were there maybe 45 minute i saw 3 people with fixed blades in plain site...one was a very pretty lady people just dont seem to notice them unless they are sizing you up...i was walking main street at night a while back just down from the Boothill saloon when 3 crackheads crossed the street to confront me, i just stopped and grinned as they eyed me...one of them said " man how many fuckin knives you got?" i replied well theres the 4 you can see and winked....they moved on

[medic06]

Well that settles it. BJJ is not the most effective self defense. Sorry, but armed beats unarmed any day of the week.

[Uke]

The moment when all the BJJ fans became "above this debate" came when the right questions were asked. Even though this is a pro-BJJ site, not one, NOT EVEN ONE BJJ player on this site could say that they've ever won a fight/match on their feet using BJJ. They couldn't even say that they've seen the best win a fight on their feet using only BJJ. And the more the question was asked, the more sarcasm was used to explain why they didn't want to debate anymore.

I'm glad that they did. I'm very grateful. They have shown me just how many light years ahead some systems are in regard to self defense. It makes you appreciate your own system(s) with stronger regard because without debates like this, you wouldn't realize just how far behind other people are in terms of modern mindset, concepts, and strategies. Many of the points that I made during this dialogue were simple, rudimentary concepts that you would learn in ANY OTHER system of self defense except for BJJ in the first couple of weeks. Even some TMA systems have adopted those principles. But listening to some of the arguments during this debate made me feel like I was in a museum of old approaches, attitudes and ideas.

My whole purpose in starting this topic was to advocate getting with the times. BJJ had its moments in the early 90's. Ninjitsu had its craze in the 80's. Arnis and Escrima and its craze in the 70's. Karate had its craze in the 60's, and Judo/jujitsu had craze time in the 50's. In the mid to late 90's, MMA got its craze, but its wearing off. As many have stated here, many of the participants in MMA are "combat athletes", meaning that many off them don't have jobs, they have sponsors to pay them while they train, and 95% of martial artists don't have that luxury. And there is little art to what many of them do, as ground and pound is the most common art in MMA. And would you teach ground and pound to children or women who need to protect themselves? Or to people out of shape or just not athletic? The answer is no, because it takes EXTREME athleticism to do MMA/ground and pound. And another MAXIM in the criteria of a self defense system is that most anyone has to be able to do it, not just combat athletes and tough guys.

Also, I would just like to clear up a little matter. MMA(mixed martial arts) is not the same thing as crosstraining. The two terms refer to two very different practices. Modern crosstraining has been done for decades. Styles like Kajukenbo, JKD and etc., have all used techniques from the different ranges of fighting to formulate better, more effective survival systems. And they change with the times, like intergrating BJJ for ground combat, but they actually look for weakness in their approaches that might fail to protect you during your attempts to defend yourself. They have concepts like controlling a man's sight, and keeping him off-balance to control him.

MMA on the other hand is the NHB sport evolution that we see in today's tournaments. Its basically guys who lift weights and get bulky in order to outmuscle their opponents and eventually ground and/or pound them. I've seen guys who have had fat bellies, but still had six packs, which is a clear indication of steroid and growth hormone use. In the last couple of years, NHB have recruited some real talent who already excelled at their particular ranges, like Mirko Filipovic, Fedor Emelianenko and Antonio Nogueira. But they are using their original disciplines as principle weapons. The majority of the participants in any NHB show don't, and aren't of the caliber of those three above, as those three are professional fighters.

But the biggest problem with MMA after the first three UFC's is that these men are training to fight only men their own size, which is not training for reality whatsoever. You can never know the size of your attacker, or his strength or speed. You have to train with different body types, sizes and ages to try to prepare yourself for street encounters. Boxing makes the same mistake, as does kickboxing. That's why you'll never see BJ Penn fight Fedor Emelianenko. Is it because of the difference in skill, or the difference in size?
I say both. Because little men always have to be more skilled against bigger men to equalize the fight. A welterweight/middleweight will never be as powerful or strong as a heavyweight, but he has tools like quickness and nimbleness at his disposal. Plus he'll have the element of surprise if he brings the fight to the bigger man because the bigger man will assume you will run. But that element of surprise will only happen once, so the smaller man better make the most of it. That moment of explosive surprise is the most important tool you have on the street next to your brain and your instincts.

[Uke]

XavierFrost

uke-

have you ever considered that the people you see fighting in the gaurd are doing it because it is one part of BJJ, and therefore they like to train that aspect of their game? i would think that if a BJJ'er of moderate to good skill got involved in a fight, their first instinct would perhpas be to look to take the guy down, mount him, then ground and pound or look for a low risk submission. i sincerely doubt anyone here would honestly tell you that you should look to play from the guard for a substantial amount of time in a real fight. I would think that they would tell you (id rather not put too many words in other's mouths, something that has come up before in this discussion) that if they got caught in the guard in that situation, they are looking for the sweep to put the fight in a better position. being on the bottom is recognized almost all the time as an inferior poisition to being on top. But that doesnt mean that the possibility of it happening shouldnt be recognized, and therefore trained in to find the best ways to handle that siutation.

my previous post was not angry. i would go with bored. this discussion doesnt add anything, and you seem to keep wanting to perpetuate nothingness, so i ask you again, please stop, and lets all move on to better post so i can stop feeling like i need to post and can just enjoy some legitimate knowldege and advice on MMA. I enjoyed jdk's responses, and they were described by you as mature. I agree with jdk, but the style of his last response wasnt the most mature way to say it (although he writes like i feel, so go you jdk). but its mature because he agrees with you to an extent and doesnt necessarily really make you question anything you believe. i even agree with you to an extent uke, because the amount of stuff youve put out there would make it hard for anyone to disagree with completely. plus, alot of the things you say, like i mentioned before, are very much common sense and do not really eleveate the conversation. your assumptions on what BJJ'ers as a whole would do in a fight is naive. so let's jsut let it go. im sure it would make alot of us much happier to really focus on an arguement that had a real chance to go somewhere.

Thank you for your comments.

First, let me start off by asking you how many fights you've won on your feet using BJJ. I'm sure you saw the question before, but you, like the others have chosen to remain quiet about that. Is that the "nothingness" that you spoke of? My claim is that a BJJ player will go to the ground in a real fight. Not just some of the time. ALL OF THE TIME. Which is why the exercise had you start from the guard. But that fact escaped you. If all the fights that you train for end up on the ground, the your fights in the street will end up on the ground because your training will take over. Until you can understand that point, then this debate is out of your league.

You say that you enjoy legitimate martial arts knowledge? Well I don't think you do as you clearly have no idea what is legitimate and what is not. Proof of that is your clear and apparent confusion. You say you enjoyed agreed with JKD187's post, but he agreed with nearly everything I wrote. The you follow up by saying you agree with much of what I wrote, but you stated earlier that its perpetuating "nothingness". How in the world does someone agree with "nothingness"? Its like you're arguing with yourself. And your pool scenario lead another forum member, BoarSpear, to state what I already felt when he told you and I quote "Now I know you don't know anything about self defense".

And I didn't say that JKD187 was mature because he agreed with me. Many here have opposing views to mine, but not everyone here is embarrassingly childish enough to let their emotions show on an internet forum about martial arts. We can debate in a civil manner, but you and a few others use name calling and insults to try and strengthen your argument because your points are shallow and factless. You've admitted that much of what I've written is common sense, yet you still argue! You've tried to be less abrasive in your last post, but appear to be just as mixed up as before. And then you have the nerve to say that we should all stop discussing this so that you can "stop feeling like you need to post".

XavierFrost, you are free to post all you want, but judging by what you've written so far, if you decide to stop I'm sure no one will be asking where you are.

PS If you say that ground fighting is just one aspect of BJJ, but you have absolutely no victories on your feet, then you don't even have a solid grasp on the knowledge of your own art.