So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[Ronson]

Reality vs. Sport

Same old tired, lame ass thread with a different dress on. Uke, you come off with this seemingly respectful and intellgent way of so called "debating."
But all I've read is 8 pages of bullshit. Your points are purely argumentative, such that nobody wins or that BJJ/MMA comes off as a "craze." I won't cite any of your shite b/c it will only lead to another 8 pages of circular "debate."

You and many other reality-types deal try to deal in absolutes, black and white.Well guess what, the world isn't. Is BJJ the end all be all. No, even I'll "submit" to that. But coming from a scientific background, so far BJJ has a record proving itself and MMA "is as real as it gets." And I don't think our western culture is willing to go the extra step to see PPV knife fights and multiple attackers. Why is that when it comes to MA, seeming rational people suspend this stringent scientific application and resort to conjecture and baseless argumentative bullshit.

Forgive me if I seem all over the place, as I am writing this in my underwear and my wife is screaming at me to get dressed.

[BoarSpear]

Reality vs. Sport

Perhaps you ought to rethink that Because the ONLY "Reality" we are talking about is the difference between Survival arts vs Sports Entertainment.

Am i mistaken or dont they avoid licensing and boxing commisions by claiming they are sports entertainment just like the WWE?

But coming from a scientific background, so far BJJ has a record proving itself and MMA "is as real as it gets."

LOL so a cage surrounded by fans and tv cameras is a scientific environment?

and a SPORT which has rules, no weapons, time limits and a referee and the prize for winning is money and fame is as "real as the it gets?"

how many deaths have resulted from mma and bjj combined in its history?

"Each day, an average of 65 people die from and more than 6,000 people are physically injured by interpersonal violence in the United States. At these rates of death and injury, more than 215,000 people died and over 20 million more suffered nonfatal physical injuries from violence during the 1980s"

http://www.sayno.com/violence.html

hmm looks like more people die from street violence every day than in the entire history of your Sport. Thats REALITY for you and its also "as real as it gets" ...perhaps that was an assinine statement made out of utter frustration?

If you want delude yourself and your wife and kids into believing studying a sport for survival is an intelligent decision be my guest. But stop spouting B.S. based on your fantasies of invincibility because of the things professional athletes do on tv!

And I don't think our western culture is willing to go the extra step to see PPV knife fights and multiple attackers.

Well of course not, A) its a sport....B) you would run out of athletes willing to participate after the first crop all died. C) the only sponsors you could find would be funeral homes and cemetaries

Why is that when it comes to MA, seeming rational people suspend this stringent scientific application and resort to conjecture and baseless argumentative bullshit.

uh who is spouting baseless bullshit? a sport that DOESNT allow weapons or multiple opponents but HAS rules, refs, and time limits is scientific proof that mma and bjj are the most effective forms of survival in the real world where there are NO mats, NO rules and NO refs, however there ARE going to be multiple attackers and weapons and the only time limit is the police response time?

Thats a completely UNSCIENTIFIC bullshit assertion if i have ever heard one!

Forgive me if I seem all over the place, as I am writing this in my underwear and my wife is screaming at me to get dressed.

whoa man thats too much info...

[Tant01]

...
Anyway, I would like to point out some things. First, BJJ is not traditional jujitsu. Let's just be clear about that now. While all of BJJ's techniques come from traditional jujitsu, its approach to applying the techniques is very different. If you didn't already know, and I'm sure you do, BJJ puts emphasis on ground fighting. In 99.9% of the fights you watch where a BJJ player is involved, no one sees the BJJ trying to stay on his feet. Now we're talking about hundreds of fights, and dozens of fighters. Nearly all of BJJ techniques come from traditional jujitsu, from the guard to the chokes. Now what some of the people here are neglecting to mention is what sets traditional jujitsu apart from BJJ: the emphasis on ne waza or ground techniques.

....But I bet the facts, examples, logic and the question of ... what techniques they used to win will be responded to with more rhetoric.

.....

Perhaps a history lesson is in order? Judo has been the ryu since the early 1880's. (NEWS FLASH!!) BJJ came straight from the Kodokan. The "Jiu-jitsu" Master that came to Brazil was sent from Japan (by Kano) to teach JUDO. The fact that GRAPPLING newaza (on the mat) was a good way to win a match against a tachiwaza player or a boxer or a wrestler was nothing special back then. That was the reason Kano developed the "new" rules for competition back in 1925.

[jubaji]

perfect example of the delusion of 'anti-grapple'

like no one is going to shoot in on you from 6-8 feet away. Actually, the "shot" is one of the reasons that BJJ isn't based on reality. Who in their right mind is going to run at someone blindly when you don't know if he's armed or not? Not me. I'm a thinker, not a man willing to play bull vs the matador.

These kinds of foolish assumptions are why 'real self-defense' MA are able to kid themselves that they have perfected the 'anti-grapple' (as if there were such a thing). Kenny Karate spends 20 minutes a week stopping Keith Karate's "run at someone blindly" takedown attempts and figures he's got that all covered now.

[jubaji]

And yes, your opponent is supposed to wind up on the ground while you are finishing him. You are not supposed to wind up on the ground with him.

So, its only legitimate if you give up control of your opponent? That makes sense.

[Tant01]

Doesn't help when Helio himself claims BJJ is like a bullet proof shield...


Here's the problem I have with the whole theory of SD. The techniques themselves are from Judo so you say BJJ can't stand up to such and such then by the reason that the techniques are the same JUDO is also no good for "real" SD. If you want to bash something ( I know that's not your intent) then you better get your facts straight son.

There is a use for the (same) techniques in street fighting that you might find in BJJ. I am quite fond of choking techniques and have used them in the "streets". They seem to work just fine to me...

[BoarSpear]

Doesn't help when Helio himself claims BJJ is like a bullet proof shield...

HEHEHE Amen to that.....to bad it wasnt a Judo proof shield.... LOL

Here's the problem I have with the whole theory of SD. The techniques themselves are from Judo so you say BJJ can't stand up to such and such then by the reason that the techniques are the same JUDO is also no good for "real" SD. If you want to bash something ( I know that's not your intent) then you better get your facts straight son.

Judo Begins from a standing position and emphasizes closing with and throwing the opponent to the ground while controling his ability to breakfall therfore greatly enhancing the likelihood of stunning or finishing the opponent.

BJJ however tends to start from the ground and IGNORES the fact that you must survive the opponents initial asault, close the distance set up your throw and control the opponent throughout the process. That is where bjj lacks essential components necessary to survive an assault intended to hospitailize or kill you (not that you werent aware of that tant )

There is a use for the (same) techniques in street fighting that you might find in BJJ. I am quite fond of choking techniques and have used them in the "streets". They seem to work just fine to me...

Amen once again..bjj is an incredible ADDITION to judo's techniques of dealing with the standing resisting opponent AFTER you throw his ass to the ground using JUDO techniques. The major concern with bjj is its lack of ability to execute throws and instead relies on tackles and wrestling (single and double leg takedowns) and piss poor striking skills that often are used to feint an attack to get the other fighter to cringe then they shoot in...if you dont backup from their pitiful kicks (watch royces fights ) and instead move in and clock them right in the middle of that nonsense its all over....however the gracies got by because people assumed he could punch and kick like a stand up fighter and reacted with trepidation when faced with a "feared" gracie...note that many stand up fighters punching power wasnt much better or we wouldnt be having this discussion now. GJJ worked more because the their opponents lacked skills needed to finish the fight before the gjj people survived the punches closed and wrestled them down and beat them on the mat. In essence it worked because the strikers sucked... not that the gracies were so great...think of Miyamoto Musashi who mused perhaps he wasnt so great as much as everyone else sucked....(paraphrased, of course) remember what a terrible day helio had at the hands of kimura...he was choked out woke up and beaten some more and was helpless against the stand up throws of judo...

[SamuraiGuy]

^^^ boar spear I dont htink your allowed to mention that particular fight in the bjj forum lol.

I'm a bit confused here, I realize Judo is alot of throws, and BJJ is alot of groundwork... but today at BJJ half the class was throws... and/or takedowns.... one of them was the shot, but the other ones were all throws...

(on a side note I laughed at one kids shot.. so slow, coulda read the paper before deciding to sprawl).

Is my BJJ class just stealing these throws from Judo?... or are you all wrong and BJJ actually has throws? lol.

I'm not sure, and frankly I dont care either way, just bringing that up... if most BJJ schools are teaching Judo throws... as part of the system... arent the throws then a part of BJJ?, just like if a judo school taught BJJ Groundwork after the throws, arent they jsut a part of judo at that point... ok ima stop rambling cause Im not sure if im making sense...

Judo is sick though... Whacha, on the ground... only part that worries me is the gi, but still Whacha... on the ground...

[BoarSpear]

To my understanding (i have studied jj and bjj and judo) the throws you see in bjj are from Judo... judo people are better at pinning you down than submitting you, so when you "borrow" ideas from another art you are changing your own...its crosstraining...its like modifying a car...add a turbocharger, nitrous, tweak the suspension etc and you have definately improved performance but its no longer a stock car...and while improving its performance you have reduced its collector value...so if your a "traditionalist" (collector) its a no-no but if you are a "fighter" (racer) its a necessity.

and the gi is really only important in the beginning of judo so you can control the beginners fall...once you learn to breakfall, it can and should be trained without relying on the gi.

and oops if i shot the sacred cow by mentioning the historical evidence of the superiority of JUDO and the fact that long before most people ever heard of the Gracies they had already been beaten by a Traditional martial artist!

[IPON]

Is my BJJ class just stealing these throws from Judo?... or are you all wrong and BJJ actually has throws? lol.

To simplify BJJ is pre war judo with a different philosophy. So all BJJ techniques you learn are essentially JUDO - standing and ground (And before someone attempts to argue this point you need to provide evidence of a BJJ technique that is not already in the Kodokan archieves). The emphasis and organization of which judo techniques are used is what makes BJJ

[IPON]

mentioning the historical evidence of the superiority of JUDO and the fact that long before most people ever heard of the Gracies they had already been beaten by a Traditional martial artist!

Amen...not gracie bashing but I have been asking for awhile if anyone can explain the early clams in the early 90.s ofthe Gracies being undefeated for over 50 years the math does not add up

[Tant01]

To simplify BJJ is pre war judo with a different philosophy. So all BJJ techniques you learn are esstially JUDO ...

THANK YOU!! The whole IDEA of "kosen" judo was AVOIDING the devastating throws and winning the MATCH by decision or submission.

[Uke]

Tant01, SamuraiGuy and Jubaji

Tant01:

It doesn't matter. Judo comes DIRECTLY from jujitsu, as Kano's emphasis on "randori" in Judo DEFINITELY found its beginnings under Fukuda's influence, and Fukuda was a master in the Tenjin-Shinyo School of JUJITSU. After Fukuda died, he began under a new master in the same school of JUJITSU.

The same way Aikido comes from Aikijitsu, is the same way Judo comes from jujitsu. Kano made modification because he was a smaller man, and he took out the dangerous and maiming techniques of jujitsu. He borrowed his throws and mat techniques from jujitsu, although he made some of his own.

SamuraiGuy:

The biggest difference/change that Kano made that sets judo apart from jujitsu is kuzushi, the off balancing technique, which BJJ does not apply even nearly as well as judoka. I said all this to make sure that we all know that a change here and there does not a new art make. It may have a different approach and philosophy, but its still what it is.

When was the last you saw a BJJ fighter apply a throw in NHB? More specifically, an effective judo throw? Judo's emphasis is on effective throwing while BJJ's objective is to take you to the ground by clinching to avoid strikes and the bringing you to the floor by using their weight. And it doesn't matter if your school teaches judo throws if no one using BJJ can execute them during a bout that isn't friendly. Of course a teacher in his own school can make these throws look effective. But not even BJJ's top tier fighters have used effective judo throws, and that's what you need to be paying attention to.

Jubaji:

No one here has ever said anyone has "perfected" anti-grappling, because if they did, we here wouldn't have agreed that BJJ has value as the ground techniques of a self defense system if used in the right manner. I thought that would have been self evident. Anti-grappling is a work in progress as every MA should be a work in progress. No one has "perfected" anything, because if they had it would be unbeatable. Another point that should be self evident.

And putting a man on the ground doesn't relinquish control of him. Self defense isn't boxing where you knock a man down and then wait for him to get up. Any judo or jujitsu man that I know holds the hand or arm during and after a throw for control measures, but they don't immediately dive to the ground and start wrestling. After the throw they can transition into locks, breaks or strikes easily if they know what they're doing..

And by the way, BJJ uses the "sacrifice" throws, or more specifically takedowns of Judo, as throws usually imply an imapct. And those throws/takedowns are called "sacrifice" for a reason. You sacrifice your superior standing position and your balance in order to get your opponent to the ground.

sacrifice: a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b : something given up or lost

In this case, because the BJJ player has no real offense to offer in a stand up situation, he "sacrifices" his position and balance in order to make it a ground grappling situation where he might be able to outwrestle the man.

[Uke]

Ronson

Seems like BoarSpear has taken care of you way too easily and thoroughly for me to have to add anything.

Ha ha ... yet another kindred post, BoarSpear.

[jubaji]

No one here has ever said anyone has "perfected" anti-grappling, .

Yeah, 'cause it doesn't exist.