wrestling/bjj, finesse?

[TechniqueFreak]

Front Headlocks & Guillotines

Speaking of which, by front headlock you mean a lock where I have the guy's head and one arm, right? Check this out. I only do BJJ, but I love front headlocks. The prob. w/the guillotine is that once you set it, they either stand upright and look up w/their head and grab your leg and slam you, or they put one arm over your back and one hand gripping your choking wrist, both of which ruin your guillotine. But lately, I get a front headlock (from standing), step my hip that's closest to his trapped arm forward and tight against that arm, then I figure-four my arms tighter and tighter (my arms are freaky long.) Once it can't get any tighter, I drop to the closed guard and arch backward. Because I have one of his arms, the guillotine defenses I mentioned don't work. If you set it up the way I said, and your opp. doesn't get his trapped arm out wide first, you can choke the crap out of 'em. The strangle works just like a triangle choke, using your arm against one side of his neck and his own trapped shoulder cutting off blood on the other side.

[danfaggella]

Good call, its not finesse I don't know what I meant. I think I meant active and explosive. I want to know WHY wrestling involves so much more constant action and effort, which is good. I think it is because in gaurd and such, you are both locked into a position where niether man really NEEDS to do anything immedietly, they are just waiting and feeling the situation. Wrestlers are never in an even position, one wrestler is always in an advantageous position and always pressing the attack while the other is always looking for a reversal or escape. I think that wrestler mentality is good in many ways, but then again, I think wrestlers get tired in a few minutes after struggling and not keeping thier cool and being a bit more slow and technical when it comes to grappling.

[EmptyneSs]

I want to know WHY wrestling involves so much more constant action and effort, which is good.

its not good, you are just wasting energy. jiu jitsu/judo allow you to grapple and finish opponents using less strength and effort because its more technical. when i was training in judo our instructor would always laugh at students that were trying to wrestle and use strength and point them out and say stuff like " look at that dude, he is about to pass out from all the energy he just wasted."

" maximum efficiency, minumum effort"

[cam427]

its not good, you are just wasting energy. jiu jitsu/judo allow you to grapple and finish opponents using less strength and effort because its more technical. when i was training in judo our instructor would always laugh at students that were trying to wrestle and use strength and point them out and say stuff like " look at that dude, he is about to pass out from all the energy he just wasted."

" maximum efficiency, minumum effort"

I think you are wrong on this one. Wrestlers are very technical and energy efficient. Rather than judging wreslers on a comment made about people doing Judo badly why not go down to a local wrestling club and try it for yourself. Even if you just do it once I promise you will learn something.

Also when you look at how good Judo is you use top judo people as your examples so you should do the same for wresling. When you think of wrestling think of guys like Randy Couture, Dan Severn, Josh Kosheck (sorry about spelling), Dan Henderson, Kevin Randallman, Mark Coleman, etc.

Wrestlers are dangerous.

Cam

[JkD187]

I think you are wrong on this one. Wrestlers are very technical and energy efficient. Rather than judging wreslers on a comment made about people doing Judo badly why not go down to a local wrestling club and try it for yourself. Even if you just do it once I promise you will learn something.

Also when you look at how good Judo is you use top judo people as your examples so you should do the same for wresling. When you think of wrestling think of guys like Randy Couture, Dan Severn, Josh Kosheck (sorry about spelling), Dan Henderson, Kevin Randallman, Mark Coleman, etc.

Wrestlers are dangerous.

Cam

Agreed 100%....Ive wrestled for about 5 years and done Jiu Jitsu about 3 and a half years.Bolth are super technical...and bolth require strength...but to supplement your techniques not to be the end all.Good technique along with disclipined strength with get your far in bolth sports.People in combat sports in general tend to gas and use all there strength in the begining...it takes time to develop your breathing and your tech.Like cam said just watch high level wrestlers...olympic Greco guys are some of the most explosive people ive ever seen...huge slams outta nowhere....its a thing of beauty really.

[jubaji]

I think you are wrong on this one. Wrestlers are very technical and energy efficient. Rather than judging wreslers on a comment made about people doing Judo badly why not go down to a local wrestling club and try it for yourself. Even if you just do it once I promise you will learn something.

Very well said.

[EmptyneSs]

I think you are wrong on this one. Wrestlers are very technical and energy efficient. Rather than judging wreslers on a comment made about people doing Judo badly why not go down to a local wrestling club and try it for yourself. Even if you just do it once I promise you will learn something.

Also when you look at how good Judo is you use top judo people as your examples so you should do the same for wresling. When you think of wrestling think of guys like Randy Couture, Dan Severn, Josh Kosheck (sorry about spelling), Dan Henderson, Kevin Randallman, Mark Coleman, etc.

Wrestlers are dangerous.

Cam

im not discrediting wrestling or anything, but is regular wrestling as technical as jiu jitsu and judo?

[danfaggella]

Granted there is no regular wrestling, but yeah I'd say its more strenth and explosiveness oriented. Not to say these qualities arent valid in grappling, in fact, Mark Kerr and Dean Lister and many others are now Abu Dhabi champs.

I belive that this deviation in attitude stems from 2 things:

1) Wrestlers are taught to be explosive, and taught to be strong. Since wrestling's origin I think it has been taught this way and this is now the wrestling approach. On the other side, jujutsu and judo are intended to be gentle and more focused on technique and timing. Often times when guys are grimacing and using brute force in a judo or BJJ place, the instuctor will tell them to calm the hell down and use better leverage or switch to another technique.

2) In grappling, there are more neutral positions where explosiveness and strenth wont always help our. In gaurd and half gaurd, nobody is in a hurry to do all that much, many times they are delicately positioning and moving a bit. In wrestling, the top man is ALWAYS trying to force down the other man, while the man on bottom ALWAYS is struggling for his reversal or escape.

I think both attitudes have thier pros and cons, right now, I'm trying to analize positions and decide for myself when I will use either approach. I'm thinking that whenever I get in half gaurd, weather it be top or bottom, I will push aggresively like a wrestler and try to force into a better position just as quickly as i had slid into half gaurd. On the other hand, I might use the more patient jujutsu approach in other positions so I can focus more and save my endurence.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Well if you're planning on being passive when wrestling you're going to get your ass pinned.

[Clooneytkd]

in my opinion i think you should, if you were to take the person down, go on the offense like wrestling. and if taken down go with the jujitsu.

been wrestling for six years, going on seven. many people think its all about being buff and all that crap. its not at all. its all about how you use your weight, create an opening, getting the opponet of gaurd. strength, although is key, isnt as important of technique and adapting to your opponets style and movement. for example if you have a very strong wrestler, most of whitch use a certain game plan, will go with bear hugs, head and arm, double legs, quarter nelsons, cradles,bar arms, spladles, turks...blah blah and so on. where as the more technique oriented wrestler will try and use all the moves he knows, trying to find a weakness. like ankle picks, sweeps, trips, chicken wings, tilts using wings, ball and chain, wizzers, arm drags, throwing legs in ect. back on the subject of jujitsu, although havnt done it, seems to be mostly about being patient. you mess up, you could get choked, or put in a disadvantage. set ups are more important and could change the fight completly in seconds. the main difference between the two, although pretty obvious can only be compared by your outlook. wrestling is more spontaneous. quick thinking is involved. jujitsu is more on the lines of mithodical. you need to think things through, what are the problems i might run into if i do this. or if he moves that way, then i move that way can i get a choke off. wreslting has this thought process as well, but wrestling is alot faster. in some cases both are alike. in my opinion you would benefit from both. in wrestling you have your quick thinking backed by technique, speed ect. in jujitsu you have your smart well timed thoughts, along with some fast thinking as well, but both incorporate many helpfull qualities making them equally as good as another. so on the offensive it might benefit you to be the aggressor, your wrestling, and when on the defensive, your jujitsu.

[danfaggella]

Good call.

I also beleive that being a bit more sensaive and contolled in wrestling can work well in many instances, obviously its not like I'm going to pull gaurd in the middle of a wrestling match.

[JkD187]

[QUOTE=Clooneytkd]back on the subject of jujitsu, although havnt done it, seems to be mostly about being patient. you mess up, you could get choked, or put in a disadvantage. set ups are more important and could change the fight completly in seconds. the main difference between the two, although pretty obvious can only be compared by your outlook. wrestling is more spontaneous. quick thinking is involved. jujitsu is more on the lines of mithodical. QUOTE]
It depends on the mind set of the person utalizing the art.Jiu Jitsu can be used offensively just like Wrestling can be used defensively...or vice versa.It all depends on how you want to utalize it....for example lets use two good wrestlers and two good jiu-jitsu guys.Two good wrestlers would be randy and chuck....Randy uses his wrestling offensively to take people down...while chuck uses his sprawl for defense.Two good jiu jitsu guys are royce gracie who uses his jiu jitsu defensively....while jacarce uses his offensive to win matches by sub quickly....while royce takes forever.

[Clooneytkd]

i see your point, but chuck in some cases cant be compared to even being a wrestler today. all he does is sprawl. thats about it. cotour actually does wrestling with takedowns ect. sprawling although is wrestling is a natural reacation when someones tryting to grab your legs and is studied by most grappling arts. i dont think chuck has ever taken anyone down in his fights, or show any sighns that hes that good of a wrestler. of course no one has taken him down, other than rampage jackson, horn and i think cotour. but those guys are decent at wrestling. others stand with him becuase they want to beat him at his own game. if some one really wanted to take him down they could. but every ones focused on knocking out the guy who seems to be knocking out everyone.

[danfaggella]

Ugh, nobody wants to play his game.... He kinda imposes it on them with sprawling, clinch breaking, and jabbing.