What is the best way to counter the shoot?

[Mephariel]

To defend shoot, NEVER KNEE unless you sprawled out already. If youre a good striker and a shit grappler but dont KO the guy with a knee and you go down, youre getting tapped. Best thing, push off and circle then continue stand up. If you watch CroCop or Liddell, theyll sprawl or do that. Other then that, its dangerous if youre with a good grappler.

Do you have a video of the sprawl?

[blitz]

Just throw your legs back so that your weight is over him and he can't reach your legs.

[Gabriel]

Sprawling is best if you are fighting someone trained in grappling.

But in most cases, if it's a guy who knows nothing about grappling and who just tries to rugby tackle you to the ground, I find that you can catch him in a guillotine because he wont be protecting his neck. Secure the guillotine and quickly pull guard. Then hold it til he taps out/passes out/dies.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Oh and when you're sprawling, always remember to touch your nuts to the ground.

[J-Luck]

Lol... it's supposed to be hips to the ground... but nuts works too lol.

[Garland]

You can move your body out of the way while throwing up knees, man. You don't have to stand in one place and let them take you down, if you lower your hips, and step out you can shove and huddle their ass into a fvckload of knees. Fo sho.

[J-Luck]

Yea, but knees come after the sprawl.

[lei_kung]

One of the best and simplest defenses to the shoot is the sprawl. A sprawl is where the defender flattens out on top of the attacker while under-hooking the attacker shoulders and thrusting his hips and legs backwards out of the attacker's reach. This does a number of things, such as put the attacker in a poor grappling position, the sprawler gets to put most of his weight onto the shooter, and the sprawler can fairly easily take the fight to grappling (starting from a better position) or stand back up. Granted, with all moves this is about timing, but it is a fairly easy move for the benefits it has. Problem is without any grappling other then the sprawl, an experienced grappler will have opportunities because both are on the ground and the one without grappling experience may have a hard time getting free to stand up if they aren't careful.

Another defense so to speak would be using a knee. Now this is truly in the spirit of Jeet Kune Do by defending with offense. Now when the "defender" lands the knee, it is a highly effective defense. Not only is a knee strike very powerful, but when done to someone who is shooting, they are dropping their body weight to get low and exploding toward the "defender". Therefore, their movement is significantly adding to the effectiveness of the knee being delivered. Another benefit is, once a knee has been landed in defense of a shoot, the shooter becomes very careful, almost reluctant to try again. Again this is simply because of how powerful the combination of a knee strike (an upward motion) landing against a shoot (a full body weight downward motion) impacts the shooter. Although, this can be very hard to time and if done incorrectly, the "defender" will be giving the shooter his leg, which was the goal of the shoot to start with.

The last defense of note is the guillotine with guard. This is where the defender allows the attacker to shoot but while being tackled, the defender applies a guillotine choke and wraps the shooter into the guard. This is a defense that many grapplers like (if they are experienced with guard work) because chances are about even. Also the game ends up on the ground, where the grappler wanted to be, without too much worry of being in an inferior position (which is key in grappling). Lastly, this defense maybe the easiest to time and use but does require grappling experience.

Lei Kung

[Garland]

Yea, but knees come after the sprawl.

not necessarily, no.

[J-Luck]

not necessarily, no.

MOST of the time, yes.

[J-Luck]

One of the best and simplest defenses to the shoot is the sprawl. A sprawl is where the defender flattens out on top of the attacker while under-hooking the attacker shoulders and thrusting his hips and legs backwards out of the attacker's reach. This does a number of things, such as put the attacker in a poor grappling position, the sprawler gets to put most of his weight onto the shooter, and the sprawler can fairly easily take the fight to grappling (starting from a better position) or stand back up. Granted, with all moves this is about timing, but it is a fairly easy move for the benefits it has. Problem is without any grappling other then the sprawl, an experienced grappler will have opportunities because both are on the ground and the one without grappling experience may have a hard time getting free to stand up if they aren't careful.

Another defense so to speak would be using a knee. Now this is truly in the spirit of Jeet Kune Do by defending with offense. Now when the "defender" lands the knee, it is a highly effective defense. Not only is a knee strike very powerful, but when done to someone who is shooting, they are dropping their body weight to get low and exploding toward the "defender". Therefore, their movement is significantly adding to the effectiveness of the knee being delivered. Another benefit is, once a knee has been landed in defense of a shoot, the shooter becomes very careful, almost reluctant to try again. Again this is simply because of how powerful the combination of a knee strike (an upward motion) landing against a shoot (a full body weight downward motion) impacts the shooter. Although, this can be very hard to time and if done incorrectly, the "defender" will be giving the shooter his leg, which was the goal of the shoot to start with.

The last defense of note is the guillotine with guard. This is where the defender allows the attacker to shoot but while being tackled, the defender applies a guillotine choke and wraps the shooter into the guard. This is a defense that many grapplers like (if they are experienced with guard work) because chances are about even. Also the game ends up on the ground, where the grappler wanted to be, without too much worry of being in an inferior position (which is key in grappling). Lastly, this defense maybe the easiest to time and use but does require grappling experience.

Lei Kung

Thank you for re-stating everything that has already been said . It's usually a good idea to read the thread before posting.

[lei_kung]

Thank you for re-stating everything that has already been said . It's usually a good idea to read the thread before posting.

I did read the whole thread, but I don't remember seeing anyone else put down the benefits/problems with these three major defenses. In fact I don't remember anyone even pointing out that the sprawl is dangerous for a non-grappler to use and stay in, which I alluded to. I don't seem to remember anyone pointing out the physics on why the knee strike is effective.

Most importantly, I wasn't posting for everyone in the thread but for the one asking the question. In reading the thread I noticed lots of misinformation such as just throw a reverse punch.

One should also be careful of the advice to stay in a sprawl throwing knees. If we are talking about a non-grappler the idea of using knees in the sprawled position is horrible advice (and can be dangerous for the experienced grappler as well). Not only can an experienced grappler slip into the north south position while the knee is up (giving lots of chances for reversals) but the shooter can grasp an under-hook and roll once the foot has left the ground for the knee strike. When the sprawler attempts to deliver a knee strike while sprawled they are in a very poor position for balance. Granted those knees can do damage but with some good timing the shooter will reverse the position and grab an advantage. If one want to attack out of the sprawl, it would be better to try and maneuver to a better position (i.e. sweep to side control) and work for an attack.

Lei Kung

[J-Luck]

I did read the whole thread, but I don't remember seeing anyone else put down the benefits/problems with these three major defenses. In fact I don't remember anyone even pointing out that the sprawl is dangerous for a non-grappler to use and stay in, which I alluded to. I don't seem to remember anyone pointing out the physics on why the knee strike is effective.

Most importantly, I wasn't posting for everyone in the thread but for the one asking the question. In reading the thread I noticed lots of misinformation such as just throw a reverse punch.

One should also be careful of the advice to stay in a sprawl throwing knees. If we are talking about a non-grappler the idea of using knees in the sprawled position is horrible advice (and can be dangerous for the experienced grappler as well). Not only can an experienced grappler slip into the north south position while the knee is up (giving lots of chances for reversals) but the shooter can grasp an under-hook and roll once the foot has left the ground for the knee strike. When the sprawler attempts to deliver a knee strike while sprawled they are in a very poor position for balance. Granted those knees can do damage but with some good timing the shooter will reverse the position and grab an advantage. If one want to attack out of the sprawl, it would be better to try and maneuver to a better position (i.e. sweep to side control) and work for an attack.

Lei Kung

I really doubt someone who isnt trained to sprawl would ever do it, it doesn't feel natural untill its practiced, so that's an inherently understood portion of the thread that doesn't need to be adressed openly. And so is the rest of what you said. From the sprawl you stand up the person, go upper body and clinch(which is the effective position to throw knees)

[J-Luck]

Some of the situations you account for when the knee is lifted are a bit too out there. A simple single leg, or high crotch to double leg would be MUCH easier and more practical. Or block the knee and go into an under over or double under hooks and look for the takedown up there.

[lei_kung]

I really doubt someone who isnt trained to sprawl would ever do it, it doesn't feel natural untill its practiced, so that's an inherently understood portion of the thread that doesn't need to be adressed openly. And so is the rest of what you said.

Ah, I'm not sure what this is in response to. I'm guessing that you are taking the term non-grappler to mean doesn't know how to sprawl which I don't understand. Many strikers learn to sprawl just to avoid the shoot but they don't then learn to be grapplers. Ultimately, I just guessing at what this is in response to so maybe the clarification of non-grappler and sprawling is irrelevant but it was my best guess.

From the sprawl you stand up the person, go upper body and clinch(which is the effective position to throw knees)

Going to a standing (or kneeling) clinch is possible. Although, the person that sprawled can break free and stand up without clinching if they choose to, so long as they choose to before the shooter can grasp an under-hook. (I also find it interesting that only in response how dangerous it can be to use knees in a sprawl that you adjust to the clinch which wasn't mentioned before.)

By this statement of yours, I'm lead to believe that you are suggesting the sprawler then draw the shooter into a standing clinch. I think this is a horrible idea. If the sprawler isn't a grappler they should break free rather then enter a free standing clinch (the notable exception is the Mauy Thai clinch). The shooter, obviously a grappler, will want to work a clinch for a takedown. If the sprawler is a grappler, why would they give up the dominate position in a sprawl to move to a neutral one in a clinch? That just doesn't make sense.

Lei Kung