The Guard... what do you do from it?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Let me just say first that I appreciate having a conversation that goes this long on a forum without resorting to name calling, well... except when you called me bitch

The potential for that mastery of Newaza has been lost to anyone who trains "Judo", because Judo has lost focus of the Newaza, and BJJ has built upon and refined the Newaza, just as I'm sure Judo has built upon and refined the throwing (I want to say Tachi-waza.. but im not sure) that they specialize in.

The claim that Judo has lost focus on Newaza is simply untrue. I would be hesitant to use the term "refined" in either case, because refining can be limited and narrow-minded. Certainly most BJJ players have explored the possiblities of newaza more than most Judoka. If I were to claim otherwise, everyone would know that I was just proud and being stubborn in promotion of Judo. That's not the case. I'll rephrase/come at this thought from another angle for a third time: When someone studies a martial art, they gain understanding of the basic principles that the martial art operates on. Those principles of BJJ are found within Judo. As far as I know this is not true the other way around.

Kimura vs Helio Gracie... now I know Judo loves to use this fight, but tell me how much bigger was Kimura then Helio, how much more strength etc... did he use, and how much more refined has BJJ become since that match. You say better than Helio Gracie ever was, who says his match against Kimura was in his prime. I would also like to state that its widely recognized, that Rolls Gracie, or Rickson Gracie are better BJJ'ers than Helio.

I'm going to have to sound pretty ignorant here for a second as I address this section I know Kimura's specs at the time but not Helio's, but yea I'm sure Kimura was heavier and stronger. I have a feeling that BJJ may have changed less since then than you think, but I couldn't tell you with any certainty. And you're right, I guess I only assumed this match occurred in Helio's prime or near it. However, I can tell you this much: judging by the fight that by all accounts Helio put up against the great Judoka, he could have stood up to all but maybe the top couple dozen BJJers of today.

Besides your argument is pointless, GSP beat Karo Parysian in a mma fight, that must mean wrestling owns judo... but thats not just grappling you say... okay well, how come the ADCC submission wrestling championships are won time and time again by BJJ practicioners and not others. Maybe its because BJJ has evolved, refined itself, and become better than the Newaza Judo taught in 1908 or whenver it was Count Koma came to Brazil.

I'd never claim that one style was superior to another on the basis of one fight. As to the stuff about BJJ's evolution and where Helio stands in the list of great BJJers, refer to my reply a few lines up.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I think what they're just trying to say is BJJ emphasizes ground fighting more than Judo, which is why they are able to beat Judo practitioners on the ground.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I think what they're just trying to say is BJJ emphasizes ground fighting more than Judo, which is why they are able to beat Judo practitioners on the ground.

Oh yea, no one is going to deny BJJ guys spend more time on the mat as a general rule. My point is that if a BJJ guy beats a Judoka on the mat, it's because that extra time he's spent on the mat, [I]not[I] because of some inherent superiority in the sport.

[JkD187]

Oh yea, no one is going to deny BJJ guys spend more time on the mat as a general rule. My point is that if a BJJ guy beats a Judoka on the mat, it's because that extra time he's spent on the mat, [I]not[I] because of some inherent superiority in the sport.

What i think samurai guy and others are getting at is....Judo has a set number of Osaekomiwaza...kansetsuwaza and shimewaza....where BJJ has no limit to what can be done in terms of techniques.In comp or even in randori there are limits to what submission techniques a person can use...plus the other rules like ippon's and pins and hold downs...different rules a different way to fight...now with that being said a Traditional Judoka who trains for abudhabi or mma has to modify the way he fights and all his techniques....to adapt to the rule change.Look at Yoshi Karo and Akiyama(who just yesterday won with a spinning back kick!) they all adapted and changed and are excellent Judoka in MMA.Your typical Judoka will be at a disadvantage when faced up against a BJJ guy because of the simple fact that the BJJ guy has more techniques at his disposal and is used to fewer rules.

[Tant01]

Old School!

.....Your typical Judoka will be at a disadvantage when faced up against a BJJ guy because of the simple fact that the BJJ guy has more techniques at his disposal and is used to fewer rules.

Phui... Granted, modern Judo ain't up to speed on NEWAZA but the TECHNIQUES are there if you look back at the OLD SCHOOL Kodokan rules it was functionally MMA! NEWAZA was BIG before 1925! They changed the rules to limit the NEWAZA specialists game and to encourage the growth of Tachiwaza.

A high ranking Judo guy (6th dan) once told me that there are no techniques in BJJ that can't be found in TRADITIONAL Kodokan Judo. I agree with him. The names have changed but that's about it. Modern Judo emphasises a standing game but they have all the same tools as your BJJ.

Dig into the old Judo, you'll find it has WAY more in comon with BJJ than it does with modern Olympic style Judo.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

It seems that for some reason youre against BJJ...The only thing that is different between Newaza and BJJ is the skill of its practioners on the ground. A BJJ blackbelt will always be better at Newaza than a Judo blackbelt because of how much more training is put into groundwork by the BJJ practicioner, obviously...

[JkD187]

Phui... Granted, modern Judo ain't up to speed on NEWAZA but the TECHNIQUES are there if you look back at the OLD SCHOOL Kodokan rules it was functionally MMA! NEWAZA was BIG before 1925! They changed the rules to limit the NEWAZA specialists game and to encourage the growth of Tachiwaza.

A high ranking Judo guy (6th dan) once told me that there are no techniques in BJJ that can't be found in TRADITIONAL Kodokan Judo. I agree with him. The names have changed but that's about it. Modern Judo emphasises a standing game but they have all the same tools as your BJJ.

Dig into the old Judo, you'll find it has WAY more in comon with BJJ than it does with modern Olympic style Judo.

Yes i know this...the Newaza orianted Judo art was known as Kosen Judo....and i agree with you that pretty much EVERY single technique is almost the same as BJJ but here is the thing....Kosen Judo is a thing of the past...just like Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu(the early Jiu Jitsu guys that submitted all the top Kodokan Guys in a huge tournament all from the Guard...then the Judo guys wanted to learn this Newaza and thus Kosen Judo was born)and today you will not see that newaza in action very often....So really whats the point of you saying this? yes it is there but what good is it if almost no one uses it?

[Tant01]

It seems that for some reason youre against BJJ...The only thing that is different between Newaza and BJJ is the skill of its practioners on the ground....

BJJ is Judo NEWAZA The only thing I have against BJJ/GJJ is the MARKETING HYPE that BRAINWASHES little twerps like you into thinking it's something else. Or worth more $$ MONEY$$! PHUI!

The BJJ lineage doesn't stop with the "grand master" Helio Gracie. It goes back to Kano Sensei! BJJ is Newaza. I would like to see more Judoka and BJJ players realize this and quit arguing about what separates them. RULES and ATTITUDES are what separate them.

[Tant01]

Good on you!

Yes i know this...the Newaza orianted Judo art was known as Kosen Judo....and i agree with you that pretty much EVERY single technique is almost the same as BJJ but here is the thing....Kosen Judo is a thing of the past...just like Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu(the early Jiu Jitsu guys that submitted all the top Kodokan Guys in a huge tournament all from the Guard...then the Judo guys wanted to learn this Newaza and thus Kosen Judo was born)and today you will not see that newaza in action very often....So really whats the point of you saying this? yes it is there but what good is it if almost no one uses it?

Kosen Judo is alive and well. Thank you very much. It came about after the rule changes in the Kodokan in 1925... after some *edit (HIGH SCHOOLS) refused to adopt the new rules they started calling it KOSEN. Before that it was just "Judo" (newaza)

[SamuraiGuy]

It seems that for some reason youre against BJJ...The only thing that is different between Newaza and BJJ is the skill of its practioners on the ground. A BJJ blackbelt will always be better at Newaza than a Judo blackbelt because of how much more training is put into groundwork by the BJJ practicioner, obviously...

TriangleChoke posted that Tanto, not this :"It seems that for some reason youre against BJJ...The only thing that is different between Newaza and BJJ is the skill of its practioners on the ground...." by leaving the last part out you are changing what he is saying.

Thats like if you said "only an idiot would say judo sucks", than I quoted you as saying "judo sucks" and argued against it. Bad form dude lol.

Heres the report, did some Judo last night, and once I get my schedule figured out I'll know if I'm going back, (work, bjj , judo) (I think im going back for sure lol).

some similarities and differences.

The warmup was kinda relaxed in the judo class... just seems like we did the same movements but in BJJ we do them harder, no use of the legs on a particular movement, etc.. just things like that. Thats not a slight against Judo unelss they are all this way, and I doubt thats true.

Judo class all the newaza sparring we did was 2-3 minutes... sure I can tap out the green belts in that amount of time, but some of the bigger blackbelts take longer! (Thats true btw)

Seriously, in the short sparring matches, there was WAY, WAY too much strength going into the newaza, especially from the judo whitebelts. I did get submitted by a blackbelt, (guy who brought me to the school), it was kind of a forced strength technique, although he did do a nice gaurd pass. He also wrestled before starting Judo, but he was by far the best technically (and strength) on the ground.

What else... Judo was alot smaller class, but it was alot smaller, organization of grapplers I would say... smaller school/class.. etc...

We didnt get a chance to do standing Randori, so I cant comment, but I would have felt good going up against any of the white belts (jumped from white to green, then green to black for the males).

Hmmm... my torso hurt, instead of my limbs, that was different.... it was good though, I'm not one to toot my own horn, but I see a judo BB in the future lol.. distant future... haha nah I'll learn quick.

Judo, fucking eh...

[Tant01]

Edit this?

TriangleChoke posted that Tanto..is different ...on the ground...only an idiot would say judo sucks ...I quoted you as saying "judo sucks" ...
....Judo, fucking eh...

Yeah, so what's your point?


Hack jobs! Suck?


LMAO... My bad.

[SamuraiGuy]

Yeah, so what's your point?


Hack jobs! Suck?


LMAO... My bad.

Well played sir.

[Tant01]

Good fun...

Sounds like you had fun at the Judo club! Cool.

I saw a lot of people start Judo but they didn't stick around once the slamming started. BJJ academies don't have that particular problem to keeping students. Don't develope the same (BAD) habits you noticed with the unranked players trying to muscle things. KUZUSHI is the secret to making things work! Take what they give you. If you can lead them into it, fine... If you can trick them into it, great! If you can just adapt to the flow and throw what you need to throw when you need it, you should have lots of FUN! Don't worry about your belt color!

[SamuraiGuy]

I wouldnt of taken up BJJ if I cared about belts, its not the.... lets say fastest advancing system, lmao.

The slamming might have been bad, but I do have my Ukemi down. Obviously it could be better, but its good.

Yeah, I'm not worried about over muscling things, remember I come from a BJJ background lmao.

Seriously though, I should probably use strength MORE. I'm generally way too relaxed, play the bottom game, bide my time, dick around attempting reverse triangles from gaurd (which if you get it is SOOOOO sweet).

Due to, some things I learned today, I may not be going back to THAT club. With that said, I've got some other Judo options that I will look into.

Still dont know if I'm ever gonna get used to the bowing, we usually just slap hands before we roll to say "start"... I found myself swiping the air after the bow, and my opponent looking at me funny.

Cant wait to see what happens if I bow at BJJ...

[Tant01]

Bow Wow... Woof!

.....
Due to, some things I learned today, I may not be going back to THAT club. With that said, I've got some other Judo options that I will look into.

Still dont know if I'm ever gonna get used to the bowing, we usually just slap hands before we roll to say "start"... I found myself swiping the air after the bow, and my opponent looking at me funny.

Cant wait to see what happens if I bow at BJJ...

Bummer? What's the deal? Remember you haven't used the club's name yet? And I almost forgot about all that bowing??? Traditional club huh?

Well, the BJJ academy here bows in to the poster of GM Helio! LMAO!