The Guard... what do you do from it?

[aseepish]

I'm sure there's a Japanese name for the guard, I just don't happen to know it.

The term we used in Japan was "gaado". Of course it was a BJJ club, not a Judo club. I'm sure Judo people have a less-anglicized term for it.

[Tant01]

D'oh jime!

lol, took 2 minutes too long answering. I should have just left it to you in the first place.

Open guard is choza or ashigarami and half guard is ashi garami and closed is dojime, passing the guard is hairigata, North/South or 69 is kamishihogatame, etc... Don't expect the BJJ players (or even many Judoka) to know all the names...

We call almost all bent arm bars udegarami where they have names for each one... It's a confusing mess!

[Tant01]

A dojime is a body triangle that you do from a closed guard and a ashigarami is a armlock from a side mount.
And the Gracie's emphasize all ground work that was from Kano's Judo and the Gracies have modified it along the way, or so were made to believe...

I took an extra minute coming up with a defense for the Gracie's innovation.

Many of the Japanese names overlap with techniques. They don't really bother to name specific positions so much as the techniques...

[SamuraiGuy]

Well if the Gracie's themselves haven't been at it long enough to be "invincible" on the ground then I don't want to spend that kind of time getting there . The ground work of BJJ isn't superior than the ground work of Judo.
And no disrespect to BJJ players. There are a few of them in my Judo class and I learn plenty from them about newaza. BJJ just isn't for me though, I would feel like a boxer who only trained to hit with one hand.

You'd feel like a boxer with only one hand, if you took BJJ, thats exactly what your gonna get from your Judo school.

Whether you like it or not, Judo=Standing, BJJ=Ground, sure you do newaza, and sure we do standup at BJJ, but not in an equal amount. It doesnt matter what WAS judo, its what judo is today, and that is standing grappling with a bit of groundwork.

Oh, and the ground work of BJJ is superior to the ground work of Judo, I understand the ground work of BJJ came from Judo, but it has since grown, and even if it hasnt grown in techniques, in tactics, etc, it has grown.

You wont see a BJJ player, rolling over to their stomach and flattening themselves out for ten seconds so they can get a standup from the ref. Talk about a one handed boxer, turtling is your skills on the ground?

Btw, I've seen Olympic hopefuls do this.

As a person who has done BJJ for, maybe, 7 months, I've tapped several times a Judo Brown Belt who is going to the olympics. Sure Judo has the groundwork of BJJ.

I also got launched onto my face standing, (not literally onto my face although I'm sure if he wanted too).

They are not the same, Judo is one hand, BJJ is the other in your boxing analogy. (BJJ just happens to be the power hand, Bitch!)



With that said, I'm starting Judo tommorow.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

You'd feel like a boxer with only one hand, if you took BJJ, thats exactly what your gonna get from your Judo school.

Whether you like it or not, Judo=Standing, BJJ=Ground, sure you do newaza, and sure we do standup at BJJ, but not in an equal amount. It doesnt matter what WAS judo, its what judo is today, and that is standing grappling with a bit of groundwork.

Oh, and the ground work of BJJ is superior to the ground work of Judo, I understand the ground work of BJJ came from Judo, but it has since grown, and even if it hasnt grown in techniques, in tactics, etc, it has grown.

You wont see a BJJ player, rolling over to their stomach and flattening themselves out for ten seconds so they can get a standup from the ref. Talk about a one handed boxer, turtling is your skills on the ground?

Btw, I've seen Olympic hopefuls do this.

As a person who has done BJJ for, maybe, 7 months, I've tapped several times a Judo Brown Belt who is going to the olympics. Sure Judo has the groundwork of BJJ.

I also got launched onto my face standing, (not literally onto my face although I'm sure if he wanted too).

They are not the same, Judo is one hand, BJJ is the other in your boxing analogy. (BJJ just happens to be the power hand, Bitch!)



With that said, I'm starting Judo tommorow.

Maybe my instructor is unusual, but we are doing one day a week newaza and one day a week tachiwaza. That's equal ground and standing.

What category has BJJ grown in if not techniques or tactics? The possibilities of BJJ are encompassed entirely within the frame work of Judo. I am not at all claiming that the average Judoka realizes this potential, I am saying that a Judoka could get as good as any BJJ player on the ground, and he would still be doing Judo. I suppose this may even be true vice-versa.

As for the turtling thing, well that's sport for you. It's a rule people have figured out a way to exploit. The people who turtle are ones that know their clear strength is stand up. Let me explain something briefly about GJJ. Mitsuyo Maeda (the Judoka who taught the Gracie brothers) emphasized keeping combat in the range that best suited you. The smaller and weaker Helio Gracie found he was naturally suited to fighting on the ground. Then, due to... I dunno, bad short term memory maybe? he turns around and figures it's best to teach everyone to just fight on the ground. My instructor has bad elbows and hasn't used Morote Seionage in serious competition in years. It doesn't mean he doesn't teach us Morote!

And bitch, let's keep it civil The Judoka where you go to train will be glad to have you. The BJJers in my class do have plenty to teach about the ground game... and if they hold it over my head I just throw them!

[Tant01]

Lol!!

You know.... I attended a BJJ academy for (some time)... I felt right at home. They practiced a handful of throws but the serious grappling always started on the knees. I'd say BJJ is not the power hand of the boxing analogy, more like the lame arm with the broken metacarples...

BJJ is the hand tied behind your back. They are like boxers in wheel chairs!

Sorry, just had to jump in here and join the fun!

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

..............................

[Tom Yum]

The Guard....what do you do from it?

I guess it depends if you're defending yourself or on a date.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I guess it depends if you're defending yourself or on a date.

defending myself of course... on dates i mount!

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

defending myself of course... on dates i mount!

No, on dates you should be mounted or in a guard.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

No, on dates you should be mounted or in a guard.

of course, that would be more accurate

[SamuraiGuy]

You know.... I attended a BJJ academy for (some time)... I felt right at home. They practiced a handful of throws but the serious grappling always started on the knees. I'd say BJJ is not the power hand of the boxing analogy, more like the lame arm with the broken metacarples...

BJJ is the hand tied behind your back. They are like boxers in wheel chairs!

Sorry, just had to jump in here and join the fun!

Is that so?

Then how come at grappling tournaments you always see all the Judoka praying the BJJ guys got extremely bad sunburns the day before?

They hope the bjj guy doesnt want to take it to the mat.

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Judo Jibooo thanks for letting me know who Maeda was , I never woulda guessed. You are very informative...

Oh and, a pure Judo player can never become as good as a BJJ player on the ground, the sport of Judo limits this, and what is taught in Judo limits this, go put a 9 or 10th Dan of the Kodokan up against Marcelo Garcia on the ground. The best in Judo is not close to arguably the best in BJJ on the ground.

Vice Versa with the standing, the potential for Best in the world Newaza has been lost to Judo, and the best in the world, standing, you need BJJ for that now.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Is that so?

Then how come at grappling tournaments you always see all the Judoka praying the BJJ guys got extremely bad sunburns the day before?

They hope the bjj guy doesnt want to take it to the mat.

I've never been to a plain "grappling tournament", what are the rules of such a tournament. No Ippon I assume, and no pins probably. This is an entirely different sport than competitive Judoka train for, so yea, I can imagine they'd be quite conscious of certain disadvantages.
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Judo Jibooo thanks for letting me know who Maeda was , I never woulda guessed. You are very informative...

Of course

Oh and, a pure Judo player can never become as good as a BJJ player on the ground, the sport of Judo limits this, and what is taught in Judo limits this, go put a 9 or 10th Dan of the Kodokan up against Marcelo Garcia on the ground. The best in Judo is not close to arguably the best in BJJ on the ground.

I already said this but I'll try to clarify. The skillsets of BJJ are entirely encompassed within the framework of Judo. All other factors being equal, a Judoka who spent as much time doing newaza as a BJJer did on his matwork would be matched. Masahiko Kimura beat Helio Gracie in a submission match! Let's put it this way, until you're better than Helio Gracie ever was, there will be Judoka who can beat you.

Vice Versa with the standing, the potential for Best in the world Newaza has been lost to Judo, and the best in the world, standing, you need BJJ for that now.

I must be misunderstanding this. Are you claiming that to have the best stand-up game in the world you have to know BJJ?

[SamuraiGuy]

Now that I read that last little quote of mine.. your right, it could be made alot clearer.

What I was saying is... the potential for a Judoka to have the best Newaza in the world, is simply not there, and the opposite remains true, the potential for a BJJ player to have the best... standup? is simply not there. Based on who they train with etc...

If you have a Judoka who trains pure newaza under a 9th or 10th Kodokan Dan, he is not going to be as good in pure Newaza as a student who trains under Fabio Gurgel, Romero Jacare Cavalcanti, Rickson Gracie, Royler Gracie, etc...

If you have a Judoka who trains pure standup with a 9th or 10th Kodokan, he is going to be better than a BJJ guy who trains standup under Fabio Gurgel, Jacare... etc....

The potential for that mastery of Newaza has been lost to anyone who trains "Judo", because Judo has lost focus of the Newaza, and BJJ has built upon and refined the Newaza, just as I'm sure Judo has built upon and refined the throwing (I want to say Tachi-waza.. but im not sure) that they specialize in.

Kimura vs Helio Gracie... now I know Judo loves to use this fight, but tell me how much bigger was Kimura then Helio, how much more strength etc... did he use, and how much more refined has BJJ become since that match. You say better than Helio Gracie ever was, who says his match against Kimura was in his prime. I would also like to state that its widely recognized, that Rolls Gracie, or Rickson Gracie are better BJJ'ers than Helio.

Besides your argument is pointless, GSP beat Karo Parysian in a mma fight, that must mean wrestling owns judo... but thats not just grappling you say... okay well, how come the ADCC submission wrestling championships are won time and time again by BJJ practicioners and not others. Maybe its because BJJ has evolved, refined itself, and become better than the Newaza Judo taught in 1908 or whenver it was Count Koma came to Brazil.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Nice, SamuraiGuy, you post what I want to able to post. You express your ideas in perfect text, and for that you really are a significant poster...