CLOSED FIST STRIKING TO THE HEAD

[Water Dragon]

Oh Christ,
Someone please tell me I didn't just start a pissing match with Pit. In that case, I quit, I surrender, I give up. I have neither the time nor the energy to EVEN get involved with that.

[gungfuhero]

I know this is a little late(people post so quickly on the mixed martial arts forum), but thanks on the info on the hardness of cheek bones. I'm not a fighter in the sense that I haven't had a street altercation and really don't want to if I can avoid it. I spar alot; thusly, I pretty much always have the luxury of gloves. The five minutes you spent writing your post may save me a broken hand. This is what the forum is all about.

[Ronin]

Water Dragon:

You lack gameness, my son.

But don't worry. We can fix that.

[mild7]

Joe Manco...
on the issue of the "vertical fist"....
I do boxing myself, and I have only recently switched from a horizontal fist to a vertical one.
My sparring partner told me the same thing that you just mentioned, regarding how the jaw is open to a left hook with a vertical fist(as the elbow is down).
I find this is true, but only if you stand straight like a tree when you throw a right cross. For me, I naturally slip downwards to the left anyway when I throw my cross so I'm still protected from hook counters.
Besides, I'm sure you know that it's pretty hard to get that timing right to slip the cross AND slam the left hook at the precise moment where the cross is thrown midway(that's when the jaw is most exposed).
Also remember that boxers of old, the ones that boxed BAREKNUCKLED, all prefered the vertical fist.
Anyhow, do continue this debate, who knows, I may even switch back to the horizontal fist if you manage to convince me. I'm generally open-minded.

[Evilution]

I think someone needs to make the distinction between a chinese style "vertical fist punch" and a boxing punch landed with the fist lined up vertically. From what I know of most "vertical fist punch" methods it's a very efficient punch that travels straight from your centerline to your opponent's centerline, with most of the snap coming from the hip. WaterDragon can probably correct me on this if I'm wrong.

I personally don't really like to punch like that. But when I throw a jab (with boxing/fencing style footwork) I often land it with a vertical fist, especially if I'm standing up real straight. But my fist alignment usually depends on the angle of my shoulder. For example, one of the guys I spar with is like five inches taller than me. When I jab at his head my shoulder is brought and out as far as possible to reach his head (and protect my jaw) and when I punch like this my fist lands vertically. When I jab to the body I have to dip down and turn my shoulder over to protect my jaw so my fist lands horizontally, following the angle of my shoulder. Same with my cross, the fist follows the angle of the shoulder and the angle of the shoulder depends on the target. I don't think there is really a vertical fist is best or horizontal fist is best, it just depends. I say experiment, find what works for you.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Evilution
I think someone needs to make the distinction between a chinese style "vertical fist punch" and a boxing punch landed with the fist lined up vertically

I think your right. You can consider a boxing punch and a Chinese punch (well at least the internal styles) almost exactly the same from the hip down. The big difference is in boxing, the shoulder drives the punch home while in CMA, the shoulder and elbow are both "held down" to keep the power connected directly to the hip.

The advantage is that the CMA guy is extremely powerful on the inside, especially when they can use elbows and shoulders. (It's a bit different than Muay Thai, as the elbows generally hit the body-the "down" power)

The disadvantage is that the CMA loses range. A boxer can simply hit from more angles farther out.

Every time I have fought a boxer the fight came down to range and footwork. If I could get in close and stick to the boxer, I could simply hit harder with more fluidity than the boxer. On the other hand, I've had my ass handed to me by boxers who could keep me outside with their jab and rip me apart from there.

[Joe Manco]

Evilution is right,

I think someone needs to clarify the distinction also.

When we were speaking of a "vertical fist," I was a$$uming we were discussing that abomination of reality, i.e., a wing chun-type of vertical fist and stance.

Water Pistol said,
"I think your right. You can consider a boxing punch and a Chinese punch (well at least the internal styles) almost exactly the same from the hip down. The big difference is in boxing, the shoulder drives the punch home while in CMA, the shoulder and elbow are both "held down" to keep the power connected directly to the hip."

RESPONSE:
WTF!!!??? They're the "same" from the hip down ... and yet the Chinese try to connect the power to the hip??!!?? Sporto, you just contradicted yourself and got it bass-ackwards. The DIFFERENCE is that the Chinese throw punches DIFFERENT from the hip down. And, yes, the shoulder isn't used much either. Punching life for them starts and stops with the hip, and that's why the Chinese suck as fist fighters. Boxers, on the other hand, generate power from their feet, torque the hip, and then cap it off with shoulder follow-through ... which is why they will knock those Chinese mofos out every time they face one. The Chnese style leaves you throwing basically "jabs" with both hands as a result ... and lousy ones at that. Please explain how you admit boxers throw the harder shots, yet you go on to say you have "more power" on the inside w/ CMA? I don't know what sort of "boxer" you beat on the inside utilizing that feather-fisted garbage, but he sure as hell wasn't a good infighter. Probably a stick-n-move amateur, if anything, but certainly not a true fighter. If you don't think a true pro ties you up, uses his shoulders, his elbows, his head, steps on your feet, spins you, and will muscle you back w/ a cross-armed defense ... unloading explosive hooks along the way ... he he he ... then you need to get out more my friend

Anyway, to continue, I reiterate that, yes, if you're talking about inside HOOKS and UPPERCUTS, from a boxer, that's one thing. In this close range, one's opponent can't cross over the top of a downward-pointing elbow (which is the natural result of a vertical fist), because your hands are up protecting your chin. So when you turn YOUR BODY into your shot, starting w/ the feet, throwing such an inside hook, your shot actually travels very little distance. Again, therefore, no one can really cross over the top of such an explosive, tight shot.

But when punching from the outside, if you try some "vertical fist" jab or power shot, you are a sitting duck for a counter right cross (or left cross, if facing a southpaw). LMAO, try jabbing someone's body w/ a vertical fist and see just how far your chin is hanging out there

By contrast, turning the fist over in a jab, you can still protect your chin.

If Chinese-style fist-fighting were worth a damn you would see people winning millions with it, defeating boxers and re-vamping our entire fist-fighting system. But the fact is, it is a bogus style, taught to boys and "martial artists" only within a small culture, but with weaknesses that are exposed as soon as someone takes that stuff up in class for a little reality check.


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Ober:

You said,
"I do have small hands, and I was throwing a right cross (allbeit a drunken one)."

RESPONSE:
What else of yours is small?

You said,
"But, my opponent didn't duck, but rather fumbled about and my smallest knuckle connected with the cheekbone of a rather large person."

RESPONSE:
Well, you can't blame "punching" for your problem and pain then ... it was your LOUSY TECHNIQUE that got you hurt. You're not supposed to hit someone w/ your pinky knuckles, but rather your first two.

You said,
"I don't care if you are a title holder or what not- alchohol impairs coordination regardless of your skills, and even many pros generally tend to not pinpoint specific targets at which they concentrate on hitting, but rather aim for general areas for the most part; but then again, they're normally in the ring with a skilled opp. which makes pinpointing more risky.

RESPONSE:
Where did you pull this out of? Never mind, I know. Yes, Ober, that is very good - alcohol "does" impair reflexes, timing, judgment, and also the way our breath smells. So what? What does this have to do with anything? A trained pro who's drunk will still punch 10x more effectively than an untrained bozo. Of course it depends on *how* drunk he is, but you are throwing in a variable that has nothing to do with this discourse. How about a man with his arms chopped off in a hay bailer? Wouldn't this effect his punching too? So let us not learn how to fistfight properly because we might one day fall into a hay bailer and so we would render our skills and learning useless ...

Are ya feelin' me on the "drunk" argument now?

You said,
"I do agree with most of your points."

RESPONSE:
Of course you do, they're exactly correct.

Later




[Edited by Joe Manco on 10-02-2000 at 10:21 AM]

[Ryu (non-working password]

Welcome back, Pit!

Ryu

[Ronin]

Give it up, "Joe".

You're busted!

[Pit Dog]

LOL

Glad you girls miss me so ... but (although Joe is spot on in what he says), he is no Pit Dog.

[Ronin]

Whaaaaaat???

Gotta be Gargoyle then.

The writing styles are way too similar.

Greetings, Canine One.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Can't be! Only Pit uses the line I love so much.
"That's bass ackwards!"

[Joe Manco]

Oh brother ...

Why don't you gentlemen stop worrying about who you "think" I am and instead soak in my words of wisdom ...

[Water Dragon]

[StrongerThanDeath]

just dont strike wildly at someones skull and your hand should be ok

instead try to hit squarely in the face/nose/eyes/mouth areas....

I've been in several scraps and my hand hasnt been injured once....(no broken or fractured bones etc) but my hands have been very f**king sore