Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[knifethrower]

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

Holly ****-------------------------

[BoarSpear]

My Hat's off to you Uke.

[Uke]

Uke,
It's good to see you're reduced to attacking my training methods for lack of any argument with teeth. I'm not basing my assessment on my school alone. I'm basing it on hundreds (literally) of videos by self-proclaimed streetfighting gurus, and by the personal experience I've had with teaching seminars 20 plus times a year all over the world in "streetfighting" schools. I'm basing it on having seen firsthand what over ten thousand (again, a literal figure) students at Vunak's and the Inosanto Academy came in with and professed was "streetfighting" skill they'd learned back home. And I'm basing it on the fact that after having lived in 23 states and training at several places in just about all of them, precious few have addressed everything I felt was needed for "real" skill all by themselves. I almost always felt it beneficial to train in more than one method with more than one teacher or coach. When I say many of the things you've talked about are missing from many, many schools, it's because it's true.

If MMA holds no value for the top streetfighting instructors out there, please feel free to explain to me why people like Paul Vunak, Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, the Dog Brothers, Matt Thornton, our military (God knows they aren't concerned with real fighting, right?) and so many others at the very pinnacle of the whole "street skills" echelon of martial arts instructors have and do train in and with MMA methods? Are you just so much smarter than all of those people that you've got all the answers they don't? Are they "missing" reality in their training because they include methods from MMA? Please clarify, because by supposing I just don't know how to train people, you're lumping in an awful lot of other world class instructors, and I'd like to be able to tell them what they're doing wrong once I understand it myself.

Seriously, you can insult me all you want, but it just shows you're faltering in your own opinion and you've run out of intelligent ways to defend it.

First off Mike, I HAVE NOT insulted or belittled your own training Mike. You really need to cut that shit out. Its apparent that I like you Mike, and it should be more apparent that I respect you. So every time I write something that isn't flattering, stop be a drama queen and making it seem like I'm trying to assassinate your character.

With that said, you have PERSONALLY said that you have done things and justified their use by stating "Hey, I pulled it off and it worked for me". So there is no attack there and there is no exaggeration or untruths there.

Next, many instructors, not limited to just Paul Vunak, Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, the Dog Brothers, and Matt Thornton teach MMA because ITS POPULAR WITH TODAYS FIGHTING CROWD. Its the same way how FMA became very popular in the 70's and karate and judo studios began outsourcing FMA instructors to teach in their schools and studios. FMA had been around for decades in America, but it wasn't until it became popular in the 70's that non-FMA schools went out to find instructors to add what had become popular. I know this because my instructor and Matt Marinas organized the first full contact FMA event in the United States. Its the same way that karate studios began offering kickboxing classes because it became a huge fad, but it didn't mean that a kickboxer like Chuck Norris could beat Fumio Demura in a real fight. People like kickboxing because it was exciting and had much more open competition.

Schools, no matter how dedicated they are to SD, will offer different things from time to time just to keep the doors open. SD/UC instructors have even been reduced to re-labeling combatives, which is offensive type attacks, as self defense so not to get sued. You might be okay if you're teaching people to defend themselves, but if your telling the world that you teaching people to go out and kill and maim, you're a lawsuit waiting to happen. You do what you have to do because in the end, its about money when you run a school. You might be willing to do it for free in a perfect world, but if you want to continue having facilities to teach in, you better offer what appeals and is popular. That is why SD/UC schools offer those classes. They don't want their paying students to have to go anywhere else for what they're looking for.

The many schools that you are speaking about must be McDojo schools, Mike. I notice that you mentioned reputable schools that have MMA programs and offer the things that you listed. I dare you to list a few reputable schools that don't and are lacking in the elements that you listed, Mike.

Seriously, you can insult me all you want, but it just shows you're faltering in your own opinion and you've run out of intelligent ways to defend it.

Mike, I'm not faltering in my opinions because most of what I've written isn't opinion. Unlike some people, I may use some opinions, but I ALWAYS support them with facts. And those facts are supported by examples that support those facts. You refuse to address those facts, and I had to literally highlight the facts you glossed over in order to show that you pick and choose pieces of my argument instead of addressing the overall point.

Liking you and accepting things that I know to be not true are two different things, Mike Brewer. I can like you all I want but that doesn't mean that your opinions are accurate, and it doesn't make you the lone spokesman for self defense here either.

There are people here who have studied with renowned men in the field of self defense before you ever met Vunak. So while I don't doubt your experience or your ability, extend the same courtesy, because you're not the only one who has studied under legendary men like Inosanto and have been in scraps. Sometimes I think you like to fancy yourself as the only one here who has been through a lot of shit, when in reality you're just the only one who talks about the shit we've all been through.

Now if you take this post as insulting or disrespectful, then you never considered me as a friend because that means all you do is assume the worst when it comes to everything I write. This isn't a post meant to attack you, Mike. Its meant to convey how I feel, and how I feel is coincidentally the way that many other SD advocates here feel.

[BoarSpear]

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

[IPON]

............

[IPON]

people won't spend the time it takes to rise to the level of MMA practitioners in the upper echelon of the sport? Well, it's equally true that most people will not spend the time or effort needed to rise to the level of expert in other arts that might give them that ability to deliver non-telegraphic slashes with a knife or Rob Leatham accuracy with a gun.

Mike that is simply not true. The Point Uke made was that (in reality) most people are not able or willing to train to be top level athletes. The reason is to become a top level athlete it takes time and complete dedication which most don’t have with full time jobs/family. I can tell you what it takes to be champion level in any sport sponsors, time and sacrifice (and of course talent is assumed). Also, there are people who are just not interested in being “in the big show”, but that does not discredit someone’s abilities. And it does not mean that someone cannot become an expert in SD becuase they do not want to become a top athlete...that is simply rediculus - seriously! Spending time to develop SD abilities is something very different and certainly achievable. I think you are comparing apples and bananas

It all takes work. And while we're talking in probablility, the true life fact is that most street altercations are not all that serious. The ones that are are generally ambushes. So since the vast majority of fights are the kind where a choke hold is a better answer than a broken jaw, doesn't it make sense to train that kind of thing against people who can punch, kick, and stop your choke?

Mike, I certainly have a lot of respect for you and your postings and I mean no disrespect. But simply, I can’t understand your point. You speak of the altercations that you have had and I am not sure why you take the assumption that others may have similar or greater experience than you just because others have not come to your conclusions. I am not sure what you train for (philosophically), in terms of SD/UC, at lest from an emptyhand perspective. Remember other states have gun/weapons laws. You have to take the situation that is presented. Its great to know stats, but what do you train for? If you take the assumption that you will probably only meet an occasional drunk, well why bother training at all. A choke isn’t always an option sometimes it needs to be a broken jaw -it depends on the situation.

I know what you're saying, bro. And I'm not coming after you personally. What I'm trying to address is that MMA training is likely - likely, not certainly - more useful than you believe. I'm also trying to point out that you are heavily biased, based on your posts, and not simply "pointing out differences." You don't post in support of MMA in any respect, and yet you feel a real pull to reply to any post similar to this that draws a comparison.

We all have bias to some degree and I would and agree that this may not be the correct forum to post, but in all honestly this "bias" (and I am saying this generally) only happens when someone speaks about some aspect MMA not being the "universal truth". However, other MMA practitioners go into other forums with the complete bias of MMA criticizing other styles or concepts simply because it is not MMA. I have not seen (or very rarely) anyone adequately discuss “compare” how the fight format of MMA lends itself to SD/UC better than other school that specialize in SD. Usually it is “Well that won’t work in the ring so it can’t work”. I said previously, MMT (Mixed Martial Techniques ) vs. MMA for a reason. Because there are so many people brainwashed by UFC/MMA propaganda that they truly believe that these people are unbeatable.

I will say this again, The statement was something like “if some top MMA guy met some TMA guy in an elevater you can’t belive the TMA guy would win” this state shows that the complete ignorance (I am not trying to insult the poster) of reality. The concept of “win” doesn’t apple wen you discuss survival. There is no ref in the elevator that will say “Caution TMA-GUY that was illegal” Or “OK this is round THREE…..READY – LET’S GET IT ON!!!!”. It does not matter who is on front of you when the topic is SD your job is survival period You could put any name from any sport infront of me ….names are not important, my job is survival. Now put me in the ring with these people I would try to win but in reality probably not. If anyone thinks differently stop training for SD because you are wasting your time.

It does teach you to work hard in training. It does teach you to be tough. It does teach you to expect pain. And if used in a supplemental role, it teaches you what to do when you find yourself in the far more commonly encountered situation of not having to kill someone.

Mike, I think the point UKE is making (and I am not trying to speak for UKE) is simply how can someone say that an “MMA Format “ which does not advocate SD/UC is better equipped than schools that specialize in this area. How many times does it have to be said: MMA is a sport format that is all. There are rules. Athletes train to the rules of this format. Training generally will become the full time job (especially for the top athletes). Training and {steroids} leave them in to fitness. Players scout other players. Rules were meant for safety not because certain techniques do not work, in fact it is some of the techniques that people claim can’t work that are not allowed. It is a athletic event, no one is trying to maim or murder their opponents (including the juice freaks –they just can’t help themselves). What you talk about are positive aspects that can lend themselves to SD. But you assume that some MMA fighter can’t freeze in a fight outside the ring or SD. Hey Bruce Lee said it best about Muhammad Ali “In the ring he would beat me, outside the ring he is mine” (not verbatim) now whether Bruce could do what he claimed is another topic. What he speaks to are the difference of sports and reality.

One more point, the thread is about MMA as one of the oldest forms of fighting so I guess we are all off topic

[kingoftheforest]

67? Are you trying to tell me I dropped a couple?

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

[BoarSpear]

I hope your NYR is not to stab anyone this year.....well maybe one person i know it gets tempting with the 67 knifes you have on you at all times!

67? Are you trying to tell me I dropped a couple?

[JkD187]

No Ma'am.

It doesn't fit in with my new years resolutions.

I hope your NYR is not to stab anyone this year.....well maybe one person i know it gets tempting with the 67 knifes you have on you at all times!

[BoarSpear]

Ladies cant we just get along??!

No Ma'am.

It doesn't fit in with my new years resolutions.

[JkD187]

That you're a popular old...? If you say so.

Ladies cant we just get along??!

[BoarSpear]

my other screen name used to be sherwinc.....


convinced????

That you're a popular old...? If you say so.

[DickHardman]

Oh.

So whats your other screen name then because it seems you don't read anything before posting...if you're always this observant you best forget martial arts and hire a bodyguard.

my other screen name used to be sherwinc.....


convinced????

[BoarSpear]

ive been on these forums longer than you have.

Oh.

So whats your other screen name then because it seems you don't read anything before posting...if you're always this observant you best forget martial arts and hire a bodyguard.

[DickHardman]

Maybe you ought to READ a little before commenting

Uke HAS listed his training in the past, plenty of times...he doesn't need to explain himself to every newbe who didn't read the old threads before commenting in the new ones.

ive been on these forums longer than you have.

i also asked uke what he trains in more than once in this thread and didnt get a reply from him. i dont have time to read every single post and every thread. not all of us are retired.