vote: Iceman or Rampage?

[JkD187]

I'll take your word for it then.........I agree that Japanese crowds are more respectful and classy in general but to say all American fans suck is a little too general. Also I doubt alot of the people booing in the crowds are even true mma fans, honestly I used to be a guy that went to fights drunk as **** and didn't even know what was going on or care. There's also plenty of people in America who might agree with you. I like the Pride audience abit more but don't generalize Americans, I know some of them are just as educated about the fight game as the japanese and maybe even watch more mma than you.

Thank you for the respectful reply spoken like a true gentlemen.....i said most fans not all but i guess there was a communication breakdown.I know tons of educated American fans but then again most are either my friends or training partners from my gyms.

[JkD187]

I love the neg comment...real classy whoever you are.

[JkD187]

Gosh all these neg reps hurt my feelings someone pos rep me!

[dogzilla]

Well, im just writing this, well to tell you the truth, i dont know the reason of writing this post. It just got me and i was ok, let me write it, it does have to some kind of level matter to MMA, but somehow, im still confused inside of me, that i do not know what i am asking, or wanting to know.

Ok, so one page ago, i think on page 6, someone wrote about mma beeing a fight on floor whit bad punches. Just trying to make my mind clear.

So MMA, is something that has alot from other martial arts taken out and puted together? I read even that if you train diffrent styles, for long time, its just waste of time? How can these be? Someone wrote that you dont get the that edge to go from stand up to clinch and so on... I think if you are a truly "warior" in your self your instict will tell you how to do it and you should be able to to do things alone, whit out training MMA to do the same, for example, a boxer 8 years of boxing and 8 years traning in BJJ, could be a good fighter, im still confused when reading this thread, is this bad, traning 3 sytles for long period of time, it will still be waste of time? or you will be good in all of them, or just someone who trained and is nothing in it? OK, tell me this, is it better to train 3 diffrent styles for long period of time or just go to MMA and have the same thing in faster time, or something like that? I hope you understood what i am asking about.

If i think of pride or ufc, which is nothing like any kind of martial art-sport, it makes me shiver, if i think about ever standing in the ring of pride, i fell scared.. why? i dont know, maybe im just not confident about my skills or just felling scared getting beat the crap out in that ring

But still, isnt it good to want to learn everything you can. Perhaps for a taekwondo, like me (traning barly 4 months) and judo, that do not have any low kicks in their sisytem, is it wrong trying to pick up and learn low kick? Or knees and elbows? To many questions in my mind that had not been satisfed yet. Some people will ask why would you want to know low kick, you train taekwondo, well i want to learn and get as many as i can, but still somehow only compete in a stand up fight, becouse from somehow when i watch all those videos of MMA i just see the guy who is on the back is getting beaten... Becouse of the legs and punches he get from the man on him, punches just falling directly on him. KO is all i can see, in other tournamnets, like just sub grappling there are no punches so it comes to completly difrent thing, no punc no kick on the ground, just leg, arm joints + choking.


Hell i dont even know my self what i want, its like a big fog going threw my mind, when i spar whit my cousin, he uses kicks and all so do i, but i cannot do any of judo i learned, becouse simple, using that could hurt him on hard concrete, i would like to show him that ground work has alot to do in fights, inside and outside of ring... Im felling like someone who wants to take more that he cant take? + there is this finance thing that i can say, i dont know alone, how long will i train taekwondo becouse of the montly fee, and noone out there i think is going to give you free traning and give you in competition.
I my self think of cometition as trying your self out, to see how good your skills are and how cool can you be in that moment when enemy is rushing on you whit all he gots. So basicly all you need is money to become something in martial arts. blah, just got confused more then before...


I will stop here, even tho i could write tons of things that i want to know, learn, and try. And i hope you will understood what i wanted to say and ask and wanting to know.

Cya, Dogzilla.

[aseepish]

So MMA, is something that has alot from other martial arts taken out and puted together? I read even that if you train diffrent styles, for long time, its just waste of time? How can these be? ... is this bad, traning 3 sytles for long period of time, it will still be waste of time? or you will be good in all of them, or just someone who trained and is nothing in it? OK, tell me this, is it better to train 3 diffrent styles for long period of time or just go to MMA and have the same thing in faster time, or something like that? I hope you understood what i am asking about.

is it wrong trying to pick up and learn low kick? Or knees and elbows?

I think it depends on what you want. If you want to compete in MMA, take MMA. If you want to be a "complete" fighter you have to fill in the gaps in your own knowledge. MMA training/competition might be a big part of that, but it's not the end of the story (don't neglect weapons, multiple-opponents, scenario-training (ever try sparring in your street clothes?)).

To me there is NOTHING wrong with trying to learn low kicks, knees and elbows. The problem is if you're not learning from an expert, you might end up with flawed technique.

Another opinion is that if you are taking a traditional style, you should be 100% loyal to that style and its methods. I personally disagree, but that's just my opinion.

Many people say that you should have a good foundation in a single style before you start cross-training - a black belt. Personally I think two or three years in a single style is a good idea.

After that, seek out the experts. This requires money, sadly. But the Thais can give you specialized knowledge regarding low kicks, elbows and knees. Wrestlers can teach you their clinches and takedowns. BJJ experts will give you ground skills. A MMA gym will help you INTEGRATE everything. It does you little good to take Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ if you never put it all together.

If you simply start off at an MMA gym, yes you'll be competing faster, but you'll be getting a mix of skills specifically tailored to MMA competition. This may be what you want, this may not be what you want.

Another route to take is JKD, which is about finding your own path, but that's a post for another forum.

[Uke]

DickHardman

uke, you just claimed that randy coutures boxing isnt even as good as a golden gloves winner lol......

stop trolling bro. i admit, you do a good job of fooling us into thinking we are getting into real discussions with you before you start slipping in your usual anti-american, homoerotic/homophobic, anti-mma, pro-combatives propoganda and its made clear that you are just doing your bi-weekly routine.

What are you talking about? How old are you? Five? I don't think you could be that stupid, so it must be that you're a child.

Do you even know what a solid Golden Gloves level boxer is? Do you know the skill level that comes along with rising through the amateur ranks? Those kids are groomed from a young age to master the basics. No one in MMA has mastered the basics. They use them, and are sometimes successful, but no one in MMA has mastered the basics of boxing in MMA. That's why the majority skill level is poor.

You can't discuss that because as you've demonstrated that its far beyond what you understand, so you fall back on childish nonsense like the above quote.

Here's some free advice: Grow up. If you can't at least discuss a topic without having to blatantly put your ignorance on display in every post then all you're doing is wasting everybody's time.

I'll tell you another thing, its simple minded MMA fans like you that keep other combat sport fans from liking you and MMA. People like you who exaggerate the skill level found in MMA just make those events seem less credible because of your ridiculous claims.

MMA is not an evolution. Shooto and Pancrase had been doing what MMA is doing years before MMA came about. Its just newbies like you with big mouths and small minds that caught wind of it 7 years ago that think they know things that they clearly don't.

[dogzilla]

Well, yes, if we spar out side, we then spar in what we are... And yes its hard to give high kick in jeans and i was planing to go to MMA academy in here for 2 months, to get some boxing and BJJ skills, and to re-new my old judo knowledge and ad low kicks. Been there on one meeting, it was frendly grapling tournament, so i got to know some of them.

And about JKD, i dont i would do what burce did, well i just aint him, i think as i read, he meant for every one to discover their own JKD, so im trying to find my own JKD if im wrong about that correct me :P

[JkD187]

Thanks for the positive rep guys!!!! Also that was a great post right there Uke...couldnt agree more.

[Tant01]

pUke

What are you talking about? How old are you? Five? I don't think you could be that stupid, so it must be that you're a child.

Do you even know what a solid Golden Gloves level boxer is? Do you know the skill level that comes along with rising through the amateur ranks? Those kids are groomed from a young age to master the basics. No one in MMA has mastered the basics. They use them, and are sometimes successful, but no one in MMA has mastered the basics of boxing in MMA. That's why the majority skill level is poor.

You can't discuss that because as you've demonstrated that its far beyond what you understand, so you fall back on childish nonsense like the above quote.

Here's some free advice: Grow up. If you can't at least discuss a topic without having to blatantly put your ignorance on display in every post then all you're doing is wasting everybody's time.

I'll tell you another thing, its simple minded MMA fans like you that make other combat sport fans from liking you and MMA. People like you who exaggerate the skill level found in MMA just make those events seem less credible because of your ridiculous claims.

MMA is not an evolution. Shooto and Pancrase had been doing what MMA is doing years before MMA came about. Its just newbies like you with big mouths and small minds that caught wind of it 7 years ago that think they know things that they clearly don't.

You seem to project many of your own qualities on everyone that doesn't agree with you... Personal attacks like this really help your credibility...

..............

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

the only thing i disagree with Uke's posts is that he down grades MMA.

There's a HUGE difference between Toughman competitors and Professional MMA fighters' skill, training, comitment, athleticism, etc.

You say Pro MMA fights are just toughman contests only where grappling is allowed..... and then you critisize/insult an MMA fighter's boxing skill.....

and then you say that most MMA fighters are "jacks of all trades, masters of none"... while that maybe true for some fighters, its certainly not true for only the 1% of mma fighters like you said before.

Champion Boxers are better at boxing than guys who dont spend all the lives Boxing. True story. And im sure that Boxer who spends his whole life Boxing will ever be able to develop a great enough wrestling/takedown defense to keep the fight on its feet.

I dont know why you always start downgrading MMA whenever you get the chance. Maybe the grappling aspect turns you on? jk

[Uke]

You seem to project many of your own qualities on everyone that doesn't agree with you... Personal attacks like this really help your credibility...

..............

So you showed up here to discuss how you feel about my character instead of the topic? Yeah ... you show about as much knowledge here as you did about JKD when you said it wasn't formless and then tried to suck the words back in as soon as you said it.

Don't worry about my character. Worry about the fact that you waste time concerning yourself with a man you've never met instead of learning more about a system your profess to practice.

[Uke]

the only thing i disagree with Uke's posts is that he down grades MMA.

There's a HUGE difference between Toughman competitors and Professional MMA fighters' skill, training, comitment, athleticism, etc.

You say Pro MMA fights are just toughman contests only where grappling is allowed..... and then you critisize/insult an MMA fighter's boxing skill.....

and then you say that most MMA fighters are "jacks of all trades, masters of none"... while that maybe true for some fighters, its certainly not true for only the 1% of mma fighters like you said before.

Champion Boxers are better at boxing than guys who dont spend all the lives Boxing. True story. And im sure that Boxer who spends his whole life Boxing will ever be able to develop a great enough wrestling/takedown defense to keep the fight on its feet.

I dont know why you always start downgrading MMA whenever you get the chance. Maybe the grappling aspect turns you on? jk

7r14ngL3Ch0k3, I'm not downgrading MMA, or at least I don't intend to. My assessment of the events is an honest and genuine one. I'm not putting the events down by saying that the participants can't one day get better. I'm not saying that the events themselves cannot grow larger. I am also not saying that the events are devoid of talent.

I am saying that the current format is training the fighters to be submission wrestlers that kickbox poorly. That's exactly what they do, and there is no arguing that fact because it is indeed a fact.

Aside from that format, MMA events outsource talent to make the matches more exciting. The best in MMA are clearly those who have been recruited from other events and/or disciplines aside from MMA. Fedor is a judo champion, but has heavy hands. Crocop is a kickboxer with dynamite in his left leg, and a former K-1 competitor. Nogueira is a BJJ player, not an MMA fighter who has won countless BJJ tournaments before ever participating in MMA, but he's putting a lot of energy into learning boxing with the Cuban National Team, and I applaud his efforts. Mark Hunt is also a former K-1 competitor.

The above mentioned are the best in MMA. There are others who are good but these men represent the vanguard of the sport. They all practiced their own disciplines before being lured into MMA competition. Even Wanderlei Silva is a thaiboxer, as his school was a thaiboxing school years ago, but in Brazil where Vale Tudo was a popular sport the Chute Box Academy began offering BJJ classes in order to give the students a chance to compete with anybody in any event. However, Wanderlei is first and foremost a thaiboxer.

I don't see my statements as offensive. The hand skills in MMA are at the level of Toughman contests. That's not an exaggeration either. In some cases its even lower if you take into account that Butterbean fought in Toughman contests until he recently tried to make the transition to NHB. And as I stated before, no fighter in MMA has better hand skills than Butterbean. None. So before you go blasting the level of hand skills in Toughman contests, you should consider who participates in those events. MMA fighters don't have great or even good boxing skills because when you compare them to hand skills in other events(that is how things are judged) you'll see that they fall short every time.

Boxing = Excellent
K-1 = Good
MMA/Toughman = Poor

I have in NO WAY implied that Toughman fighters have the same level of commitment, athleticism or training as MMA fighters. That's something you've made up all on your own, 7r14ngL3Ch0k3. I believe that MMA sports science is cutting edge. Their training methods have dramatically improved since the early days. And like you and I both have said a dozen times, with more money more talented coaches and trainers will be lured to those events. I think its unfair to exaggerate my statements just because you didn't like a few of them.

And I still stick to my guns when I said that 1% are masters while 99% of the competitors are jacks of all trades. There's nothing wrong with that. Even if you disagree with the percentage the highest you could go is maybe 5%. No one that MMA produces is a master of a discipline. MMA outsources for those kind of fighters. That isn't to say that the jack of all trades aren't competitive, but they are what they are.

Truthfully, MMA has made many athletes and fighters become experts in BJJ because they were lulled into believing in the early Gracie propaganda that going to the ground was the only way to win due to the success of BJJ players in the early UFC's. Many, many people abandoned striking in favor of ground submission fighting because they were sold the idea that they had discovered some Holy Grail of combat, when in reality it was just a replay of history.

When newaza first became a "big thing", it was when Kano's entire school was defeated by it after another school realized that they were no match for Kano's students while standing. Kano was impressed and asked the master of that school to stay and teach the newaza aspect. Soon, all of Kano's students were going straight to the ground to work in newaza range. Kano realized then that the emphasis on newaza was not only impractical but it hurt the focus on attaining the necessary skills to achieve the throw, which in his mind was most important. By the time Kano finalized his Kodokan curriculum, people weren't using newaza frequently at all. The throw and kuzushi were the main goals of judo in its beginnings and at the final stage for a reason.

Submission wrestling is a sport in its own right and does require a certain amount of skill, but if you think that newaza requires any where near the level of skill that tachiwaza does, then you haven't experienced real jujitsu, my friend. That is not a slight or an insult. Its experience and insight from not only myself but my teachers before me.

Submission wrestling requires much more athleticism than tachiwaza as you are constantly in a struggle while in newaza range. That much is true. However, you won't be able to do a thing using tachiwaza(standing jujitsu methods) unless you've attained a certain level of skill aside from rudimentary sacrifice throws and takedowns. Kuzushi is a much more complex principle than anything you'll find in newaza(ground submission wrestling), and being able to apply tachiwaza to a resisting opponent takes much more skill and understanding than any submission you can name.

That's why I stand by what I said about Randy Couture being ranked so low in jujitsu. What you see in MMA is submission wrestling, not tachiwaza techniques that would warrant anyone rating the fighters above a 4 or 5 in jujitsu. The only person that I have been impressed with in terms of jujitsu is Karo Parisyan. Karo has beautiful technique, although he doesn't show it in his matches, but that's on him.

In the end, I'm sorry that you feel that I'm trying to degrade or downgrade MMA fighters, 7r14ngL3Ch0k3. I'm not, and other MMA fans see that. If I said that boxers aren't good at ground submissions, would that mean that I'm then degrading boxers? I don't think so.

Like JKD187 has been saying, people who exaggerate the skill level found in these events aren't doing MMA any favors. If the current skill level is seen as sufficient, then there will be no push for the coaches and fighters to improve their training methods.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

thanks for clearing that up but there's many mma fighters out there that have mastered one discipline. Yoshihiro Akiyama, for example, is the K-1 Hero's champion. He's a great judoka, i think he placed very high at the World Judo Championships a couple years ago, and he's still a good technical, powerful striker. There's also many other fighters in mma who are great at one thing and pretty good in the other areas whom YOU are not aware of. Dont take this as a challenging post btw.

the Kano part was a good read

[Uke]

thanks for clearing that up but there's many mma fighters out there that have mastered one discipline. Yoshihiro Akiyama, for example, is the K-1 Hero's champion. He's a great judoka, i think he placed very high at the World Judo Championships a couple years ago, and he's still a good technical, powerful striker. There's also many other fighters in mma who are great at one thing and pretty good in the other areas whom YOU are not aware of. Dont take this as a challenging post btw.

the Kano part was a good read

I don't doubt that there are great fighters participating in MMA that I'm not aware of. I am not a die-hard MMA fan as I don't watch it as closely as some others, but I've been watching it since the UFC, and Shooto and Pancrase events before that.

Also, I never disputed that there are great fighters in MMA. What I stated was that MMA isn't producing them. They're being outsourced.

Last but definitely not least, why use Yoshihiro Akiyama as an example, Bro? Nearly every win he's had has been controversial. Not only in MMA but in the Judo tournament that he almost won. Isn't he banned in MMA for pulling the same stunt that he did in the Judo competition?

Great convo.

[DickHardman]

even ukes arguement that mma fighters arent masters is incorrect. most good mma fighters have indeed mastered a discipline. you even named many yourself.

how many bjj blackbelts compete in mma??? tons. chuck liddel himself is a kempo blackbelt and was a top rated wrestler, again mastered more than one discipline.
bj penn, blackbelt. yoshida, blackbelt and olympic gold medalist. mike serra, blackbelt. karo, blackbelt and grappling specialist. the list goes on and on. uke, your shtick is gettng old. im not even a fan of mma and i can list a ton of people that are masters in their disciplines.