vote: Iceman or Rampage?

[JkD187]

Actually you're completely innacurate in your statements. And I'm sorry, did those superior strikers knock him out(other than Rampage)? Oh, that's right, they didn't lol. Great logic buddy.

YOU sir, are the moron

Those statements are acurate...guy and alistair bolth beat Liddell's ass on the feet untill chuck landed a big one and yes bolth were koed by Liddell ...why? because there defense wasnt too good bolth guys are good at striking offense but there defense is pretty suspect and chuck hits hard but always keeps his hands low and barely ever blocks...those fights were like a guage for when a superior striker with great defensive skills(espically rampage's crazy monkey defense)and look what happened....but again your right Liddell did ko them. o and you hurt my feelings by calling me a moron...

[JkD187]

where do you hail from jkd187? you shouldn't generalize so much about things you know nothing about.

Really i'll take your word for it then....i mean im sure 100% that i watch more MMA then anyone on here...events from all over the world...espically Japan and i can say without a doubt that most other countries fans are alot more respectfull......Take the Din Thomas fight for example....beautiful boxing and grappling by Thomas slicing through Stephens Guard like butter and getting his back almost sinking in the RNC....the crowd was BOOING like crazy but when stephens reverses and misses almost every punch in his guard they go bonkers....when he stops and Din applys the triangle they boo again....later on in round 2 Din has a beautiful armbar from the guard victory and they still boo...Those fans that booed were morons plain and simple.All these Celebs that are supposted to be "fans" know jack crap either.Your average fan worships the ground Liddell walks on and it makes me sick to my stomach that a one demensional fighter like him with no technique at all(his whole game is about keeping the right distance so he can catch you at the end of his punch...those wrestlers and grapplers he faced were to scared and lacked proper defense to get in on liddell..so yes he was exposed)gets so much pub when his fights look like bar room brawls...but again thats what America likes...which is why i watch events from other Countries.

[Hardball]

Saturday Chuck got caught by his own strategy. Chuck uses "Attack By Drawing". Yet he fell for it when Rampage opened his guard and invited Chuck in. Classic attack by drawing.

[LoneHusky]

Really i'll take your word for it then....i mean im sure 100% that i watch more MMA then anyone on here...events from all over the world...espically Japan and i can say without a doubt that most other countries fans are alot more respectfull......Take the Din Thomas fight for example....beautiful boxing and grappling by Thomas slicing through Stephens Guard like butter and getting his back almost sinking in the RNC....the crowd was BOOING like crazy but when stephens reverses and misses almost every punch in his guard they go bonkers....when he stops and Din applys the triangle they boo again....later on in round 2 Din has a beautiful armbar from the guard victory and they still boo...Those fans that booed were morons plain and simple.All these Celebs that are supposted to be "fans" know jack crap either.Your average fan worships the ground Liddell walks on and it makes me sick to my stomach that a one demensional fighter like him with no technique at all(his whole game is about keeping the right distance so he can catch you at the end of his punch...those wrestlers and grapplers he faced were to scared and lacked proper defense to get in on liddell..so yes he was exposed)gets so much pub when his fights look like bar room brawls...but again thats what America likes...which is why i watch events from other Countries.

I'll take your word for it then.........I agree that Japanese crowds are more respectful and classy in general but to say all American fans suck is a little too general. Also I doubt alot of the people booing in the crowds are even true mma fans, honestly I used to be a guy that went to fights drunk as **** and didn't even know what was going on or care. There's also plenty of people in America who might agree with you. I like the Pride audience abit more but don't generalize Americans, I know some of them are just as educated about the fight game as the japanese and maybe even watch more mma than you.

[J-Luck]

See J-Luck??? I told you that if you just re-read what I wrote you'd see what I was saying!!!

First, I wasn't arguing with you over the "mixed" comment. I was actually adamantly agreeing with you.

Second, Randy Couture is not a 7 in boxing. He would get beaten up by most amateurs. I'd go as far as to say that he isn't even at Golden Gloves level. Boxing is a science. Randy has used some of the basics to win, but I must stress that against real boxing talent he'd fall flat. The same goes for all MMA.

Next, I like the idea of what you are doing by training at separate schools. You avoid being stuck in some other guy's methodology that may not work well for you because you're exposed to more. By going to a thaibox gym, you'll hone and perfect you strikes much better than you would in a crash course found in a MMA gym. Same for jujitsu. Same for boxing. That's because MMA is one big crash course, but it is exciting because of the brawling and the knockouts that follow the brawling.

I've been saying for years that MMA is a toughman contest with submission wrestling. Apparently you feel the same way as you think that most of the schools are a crappy mess. We agree there. But the way you rate Randy ...we don't agree there.

Randy as a wrestler is a 10. As a boxer he's a 3 or 4. As a kickboxer he's a 2 or 3. As a jujitsu practitioner he's a 5, as there is much more to jujitsu than you'll EVER see in MMA. By using his wrestling skills with some jujitsu finishes, he compensates, but that doesn't make him a great or even proficient JJ practitioner. The majority of MMA fighter don't even rank as highly as Couture.

I've also been saying for years here that the best competitors in MMA events aren't MMA fighters. Crocop, Fedor, Nogueira, and most of the best are traditional martial artists. They specialize in a range and use it to compensate in other areas, while adding other ranges to be competitive.

The reason that I bring this up is because MMA creates its own fighters nowadays(or at least since they abandoned the old format of style vs style) by having the veterans teach young guys those same poor boxing and kickboxing skills, and throw in some BJJ/submission wrestling to round it all out. Yet, the best of the best are always the guys who have learned how to master one style/method and work on it for years. Later on, they add on things to be able to compete well like in the case of Nogueira adding on boxing, or Crocop adding on takedown defense and some subs.

But the best are masters of their disciplines. The rest are simply jacks of all trades, but masters of none. The stats don't lie.

Regardless of all this, Rampage won. He's the champ. I hope he goes on to avenge his losses to Wanderlei. Like him or not he's a character that brings more than just punches and kicks as far as entertainment value. He's got to be the best MMA interview to watch.

Well of course I'm going to agree with most of what you're saying, becuase we seem to be somewhat on the same page.

I do, however stick by my guns on my ratings of Randy. I think you are far off on all of yours. His jiu-jitsu is fantastic, and BJ and Jacare have both suggested he could make the finals of Abu Dhabi. No offense, but you are not in a place to put your judgement of his skills above, or near theirs.

Boxing is a solid 6-7. I think he would be a successful club level pro. Granted, his age would prevent this, but skill wise, he's there. I've talked to a bunch of people who've sparred him boxing, and say his hands are better than some club level pros we know. I mean, a club level pro is nothing to be proud of if you're a strict boxer, but for an MMA guy, that's really good.

I mean a 10 wrestler. You're without a doubt wrong there. Lindland is a 10. Randy is ... solidly a 9. Not even in the upper echalons of that rating lol. Koscheck, for example, would be considered a top level 9... possibly a low level 10.



Certainly disciple's should be trained seperately. I'm actually made fun of for being anal about that sometimes, but it shows. I've only been training a few years, but my all around game is better than anyone I know with my experience/time put in. I fought a dude(amateur) the other day who's fought a couple pro mma fights(3-1 record), and I knocked him around. My boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling were all better. (We did this fight to prove my point). I box at an acclaimed school, practice muay thai at an acclaimed school, wrestle with fantastic coaching, and attend one of the best jiu-jitsu schools in the country. I'm not sure how any MMA school can compete with people who train that way unless they have the top trainers in each art.

[J-Luck]

Another thing. I've had alot of boxers from my gym who are MMA fans take a look at MMA boxing after this topic was brought up(mayweather). They all agree that MMA boxing is getting better and better with time(due to more money coming into MMA, and therefore better trainers).

[LoneHusky]

Quinton Rampage Jackson Career Highlights
Uploaded by mmasterkillah

here's a new highlight, 2nd song is the shit.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Lol you should go do some MMA,jiu-jitsu,boxing, and kickboxing before calling an elite fighter overrated.

Naaaa, hendi hasn't earned his spot yet, not in the UFC at least.

Chuck Liddell is and was overrated. The casual fans of the UFC (and its ok to be a casual fan) and the people who hear about ufc on tv/internet think he really is or i guess was the best Ultimate fighter on the planet. I dont blame them cause they wouldt know better. You want an example? here

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=L6WiFMCnG3w[/YOUTUBE]

This noob didnt even know who Hendo was. And Hendo has earned his spot in the UFC. He has both the PRIDE 183 and 205 lb championship title plus two WWGP belts. Who cares if 90% of UFC fans dont know who he is, i'd much rather see jackson fight him for the title rather than Rashd Evans or a 3rd fight with Chuck.

[LoneHusky]

sounds like dana white.

[Uke]

Well of course I'm going to agree with most of what you're saying, becuase we seem to be somewhat on the same page.

I do, however stick by my guns on my ratings of Randy. I think you are far off on all of yours. His jiu-jitsu is fantastic, and BJ and Jacare have both suggested he could make the finals of Abu Dhabi. No offense, but you are not in a place to put your judgement of his skills above, or near theirs.

I can appreciate you sticking to your guns, but I don't think you know what great jujitsu is. What the Gracies teach isn't great jujitsu. Its submission wrestling. Newaza may be a part of jujitsu, but its a sportive aspect that only came about once weapons were banned. True jujitsu is more than just laying on the ground and learning submissions. By that reasoning, we might as well say that Mark Kerr was excellent at jujitsu, but he isn't. He's a wrestler who learned some submissions.

Unfortunately it seems your logic is swayed by men who you see on television. What they say is obviously gospel to you. I however have been fortunate enough to learn from men who are not only legends in the world of jujitsu and combatives, but aren't limited to only one aspect of jujitsu, and even that aspect of (MMA)jujitsu is limited to sporting events. So when you give someone a 9 or 10 for jujitsu, they better be a master at it and not just a guy who has picked up a few submissions and learned how to work from positions like guard, mount, and side mount.

Boxing is a solid 6-7. I think he would be a successful club level pro. Granted, his age would prevent this, but skill wise, he's there. I've talked to a bunch of people who've sparred him boxing, and say his hands are better than some club level pros we know. I mean, a club level pro is nothing to be proud of if you're a strict boxer, but for an MMA guy, that's really good.

That's not accurate either. Randy Couture would easily get outboxed by an Olympic hopeful. I also believe that he isn't at the level of a Golden Gloves champion, which is basically a skilled child. Being a club fighter could mean that you are below both skill wise. Anyone can be a pro fighter, J-Luck. You don't even have to really be fairly skilled. As far as that being really good for an MMA guy, that's wrong too. Why would someone limit themselves when they could rise to a level where their boxing skills could determine a match? If a MMA guy would stick to it and master those handskills he could be a force to be reckoned with WITHOUT having to roll around on the floor. Just like Crocop, but his left high kick telegraphs much more.

I mean a 10 wrestler. You're without a doubt wrong there. Lindland is a 10. Randy is ... solidly a 9. Not even in the upper echalons of that rating lol. Koscheck, for example, would be considered a top level 9... possibly a low level 10.

No argument there.

Certainly disciple's should be trained seperately. I'm actually made fun of for being anal about that sometimes, but it shows. I've only been training a few years, but my all around game is better than anyone I know with my experience/time put in. I fought a dude(amateur) the other day who's fought a couple pro mma fights(3-1 record), and I knocked him around. My boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling were all better. (We did this fight to prove my point). I box at an acclaimed school, practice muay thai at an acclaimed school, wrestle with fantastic coaching, and attend one of the best jiu-jitsu schools in the country. I'm not sure how any MMA school can compete with people who train that way unless they have the top trainers in each art.

Well to tell you the truth, you not doing anything much different than other people. I like the idea, but when you do that, you're not learning how to transition between ranges which IMO is much more important than being technically sound. Not every great fighter is a technician, and by the standards you've set for yourself that's what you're aiming to become. If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours.

The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown.

You're basically doing what MMA attempts to do but with bigger names. No matter how talented you are, you won't reap the full benefits from any of the schools you attend because your mind can only process but so much.

MMA is a bit smarter than that. They have decided what it is that they wish to accomplish, and they have devised a curriculum to do it. They don't wish to be the best fighters out there. They wish to be able to deal with any range adequately enough to find a way to win, but in a sportive manner. They just wish to be competent enough to compete with whoever is in the ring with them. But that's why they are very limited and are often criticized.

I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind.

This is the reason that MMA gets trashed a lot in the media. Not one fighter in the events has paid his dues to be able to start mixing and matching styles and ranges. Most haven't even mastered just one style, let alone several to be qualified to say what works and what doesn't. Proof of that is that when they enter other events that showcase other styles and ranges that they have supposedly mastered, they lose in embarrassing fashion. The only event that MMA fighters show promise in is the Abu Dhabi, which reinforces the point that MMA has become nothing more than submission wrestling with some sloppy punches and kicks.

If you go by MMA, nothing works but thaiboxing/kickboxing, brawling and BJJ. And hopefully we all know that isn't true.

[Uke]

Another thing. I've had alot of boxers from my gym who are MMA fans take a look at MMA boxing after this topic was brought up(mayweather). They all agree that MMA boxing is getting better and better with time(due to more money coming into MMA, and therefore better trainers).

There were always boxing trainers for MMA. They just didn't focus on hand skills because they were so swept up with thaiboxing and submission wrestling. Now we see guys like Couture and Nogueira improving, but that doesn't represent even 1% of MMA. There are a few others, but none so significant that you'd actually say the tide is turning in MMA.

Most others have sloppy hand skills that looks like brawling. That's why the boxing community, which has been around a lot longer than MMA, says what they do about MMA. They may not know a thing about submission wrestling but they know hand skills better than anyone else. But I've noticed that MMA fans and fighters alike can't take the criticism.

If anything, they should appreciate the criticism and step their game up.

[Mephariel]

I am not sure if I agree with Uke that Gracies do submission wrestling. First of all, the Gracies barely wrestles. They are not even wrestlers. When you look at guys like Ralph Gracie, he has one takedown move: the shoot. They are not even proficient at the clinch position or standup throws. And when Royce Gracie fought Sakaruba and Matt Hughes, it shows. Royce couldn't even take Sakaruka, a real wrestler, down to the ground even after many chances in a clinch. I don't know whether or not the Gracies do pure jujitsu, but if they are consider wrestlers, they must be pretty poor at their own art.

[Uke]

boxing isnt the only way to win a mma match, so why do you expect these people to be the best boxers? you expect mma fighters to be the cream of the crop of a sport they dont even compete in. what is your point? we already know that a guy who spends 100% of his time practicing boxing is going to be better at boxing than a guy who spends 25%, 50%, even 75% of his time learning boxing. whats your point?

Its not just boxing. Its kicking as well. Its also transitioning between the ranges. MMA is submission wrestling with sloppy punches and kicks.

if you like boxing better uke, then watch boxing.

I do, and I do!

if you hate americans then come out and say it, no need to slip it into posts here n there and try to duck around it when you obviously feel that way.

I am an American, so you sound ignorant here. My thoughts about the American fan base has nothing to do with how I feel about my country. I think you've run out of things to type and now you're looking for some attention.

Have fun with that.

[Uke]

I am not sure if I agree with Uke that Gracies do submission wrestling. First of all, the Gracies barely wrestles. They are not even wrestlers. When you look at guys like Ralph Gracie, he has one takedown move: the shoot. They are not even proficient at the clinch position or standup throws. And when Royce Gracie fought Sakaruba and Matt Hughes, it shows. Royce couldn't even take Sakaruka, a real wrestler, down to the ground even after many chances in a clinch. I don't know whether or not the Gracies do pure jujitsu, but if they are consider wrestlers, they must be pretty poor at their own art.

They do not do traditional jujitsu. When was the last time you've seen a Gracie or anyone for that mattter grapple while on their feet? Some wreslters like Randleman and Rampage will grapple and throw using wrestling technique, but it isn't jujitsu.

The Gracies have only used newaza to win their matches. They shoot too, but they are more known for sacrifice takedowns, which is as close to tachiwaza jujitsu as they come. They get you on the ground and look for chokes and submissions.

[DickHardman]

uke, you just claimed that randy coutures boxing isnt even as good as a golden gloves winner lol......

stop trolling bro. i admit, you do a good job of fooling us into thinking we are getting into real discussions with you before you start slipping in your usual anti-american, homoerotic/homophobic, anti-mma, pro-combatives propoganda and its made clear that you are just doing your bi-weekly routine.