vote: Iceman or Rampage?

[DickHardman]

btw uke, what you wrote about kano was a lie too. he saw that newaza was so effective that students were not even bothering to learn the tachi waza, so he made his curriculum mostly tachiwaza so it would not be forgotten. kano himself found nothing wrong with newaza, thats why he even included it into his format you lier, he just emphasized tachiwaza more cause newaza became so popular that he feared the tachiwaza would be forever lost.

[Uke]

even ukes arguement that mma fighters arent masters is incorrect. most good mma fighters have indeed mastered a discipline. you even named many yourself.

how many bjj blackbelts compete in mma??? tons. chuck liddel himself is a kempo blackbelt and was a top rated wrestler, again mastered more than one discipline.
bj penn, blackbelt. yoshida, blackbelt and olympic gold medalist. mike serra, blackbelt. karo, blackbelt and grappling specialist. the list goes on and on. uke, your shtick is gettng old. im not even a fan of mma and i can list a ton of people that are masters in their disciplines.

The fact that you believe that attaining a black belt in this day and age makes you a master just further shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're lost and still trying to find your way into a conversation that's way over your head.

You believe what you see Liddell doing in the ring is Kempo??? Go out and learn something before writing stupidity like that. Chuck Liddell could say that he's a Capoeira expert for all I care, but unless he can demonstrate his proficiency at it then its all hype. Chuck Liddell is no more of a Kempo stylist than Kimo is a Tae Kwon Do fighter, which Kimo originally claimed.

And you further embarrass yourself by showing your lack of reading comprehension. My statement was that masters in MMA are recruited from outside the events, not trained within them. Your mind is just too lazy to understand the difference between the two statements.

And what I wrote about Kano was accurate. If you trained with people who met him or his students then you might actually know something instead of relying on the internet and articles. How could tachiwaza be lost if there were other practicing jujitsuka out there actively teaching like Ueshiba sensei? And Ueshiba sensei was understood to be a more superior martial artist and technician than Kano sensei was. So what you say makes no sense as usual.

The only decent thing you've done here so far is not to mention your instructor's name so that you only embarrass yourself and not your entire school.

I didn't come here to argue with you, but you insist on being pesky.

[DickHardman]

The fact that you believe that attaining a black belt in this day and age makes you a master just further shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're lost and still trying to find your way into a conversation that's way over your head.

You believe what you see Liddell doing in the ring is Kempo??? Go out and learn something before writing stupidity like that. Chuck Liddell could say that he's a Capoeira expert for all I care, but unless he can demonstrate his proficiency at it then its all hype. Chuck Liddell is no more of a Kempo stylist than Kimo is a Tae Kwon Do fighter, which Kimo originally claimed.

And you further embarrass yourself by showing your lack of reading comprehension. My statement was that masters in MMA are recruited from outside the events, not trained within them. Your mind is just too lazy to understand the difference between the two statements.

And what I wrote about Kano was accurate. If you trained with people who met him or his students then you might actually know something instead of relying on the internet and articles. How could tachiwaza be lost if there were other practicing jujitsuka out there actively teaching like Ueshiba sensei? And Ueshiba sensei was understood to be a more superior martial artist and technician than Kano sensei was. So what you say makes no sense as usual.

The only decent thing you've done here so far is not to mention your instructor's name so that you only embarrass yourself and not your entire school.

I didn't come here to argue with you, but you insist on being pesky.

*** yawn***


same old routine. you need to work on some new material bro.

[Tant01]

Give the thread to pUke. He knows everything about everything.

[Uke]

Give the thread to pUke. He knows everything about everything.

Actually I don't. Never claimed to know everything. But there hasn't been a time where you've seen me claiming shit about things that I supposedly study only to get exposed as a fake for not knowing its founding principles.

I may not take nonsense from either of you and insult you in return, but I'm not the one who needs to troll to this topic because I have nothing of value to say. I was actually talking with JKD187 and 7r14ngL3Ch0k3, two of the biggest MMA fans on this site. You two(Tant01 and DickHardman) just decided to crawl from under whatever rock you two were living under and talk trash. And notice that it was ONLY you two who came here to cause trouble, as you two are the only ones here who can't contribute.

Same advice to you Tant01: Get some self respect and act like a man. You're always whining like a cry baby, and if you only showed up to to offer your simpleton attempt at a psychoanalysis then do it on Open Access where it belongs.

[Uke]

*** yawn***


same old routine. you need to work on some new material bro.

Keep yawning bro, because your brain seriously needs the oxygen. Maybe once you're replenished you can elaborate on how Kano single handedly saved tachiwaza from vanishing into thin air despite there being several other jujitsu styles and better teachers out there.

I would love to watch you try and bullshit your way through that one.

[Tant01]

Leash the troll

Give the thread to pUke. He knows everything about everything.

And Everyone!

[jubaji]

Its just newbies like you with big mouths and small minds that caught wind of it 7 years ago that think they know things that they clearly don't.

Well, it looks like ol' pUke is still a mouthy D-bag.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Give the thread to pUke. He knows everything about everything.

Stop kissing his ass. :P

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Well, it looks like ol' pUke is still a mouthy D-bag.

jubaji, please dont turn this thread into a bunch one liners against Uke that tant01 now

[jubaji]

That's up to pUke now, but I'm not optimistic.

[Uke]

That's up to pUke now, but I'm not optimistic.

Don't worry, 7r14ngL3Ch0k3. Unless you or JKD187 are going to post more about the subject, this thread is pretty much dead now that its beginning to smell like jubaji.

[jubaji]

In other words, once again pUke has run out of BS and can either just go away and STFU or repeat himself for ten more pages.

[J-Luck]

Chuck Liddell is and was overrated. The casual fans of the UFC (and its ok to be a casual fan) and the people who hear about ufc on tv/internet think he really is or i guess was the best Ultimate fighter on the planet. I dont blame them cause they wouldt know better. You want an example? here

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L6WiFMCnG3w

This noob didnt even know who Hendo was. And Hendo has earned his spot in the UFC. He has both the PRIDE 183 and 205 lb championship title plus two WWGP belts. Who cares if 90% of UFC fans dont know who he is, i'd much rather see jackson fight him for the title rather than Rashd Evans or a 3rd fight with Chuck.

Ummmm no Chuck is not overrated. You've done nothing to support your thinkin lol.

Ummmm. what relevance does that noob have? That's just your insecurity again, of your "noobhood" showing. Again, go train some, then talk to me about elite fighters.

Rashad is a threat to anyone at 205, I dont wanna hear it.

Ummm, he's earned his position once he's got 1 or more fights in the UFC. I dont care about Pride, hes in the UFC. I know all about Pride, more than you, so please don't suggest I'm a noob(I've been into the UFC for over 7 years, just as much as now).

[J-Luck]

I can appreciate you sticking to your guns, but I don't think you know what great jujitsu is. What the Gracies teach isn't great jujitsu. Its submission wrestling. Newaza may be a part of jujitsu, but its a sportive aspect that only came about once weapons were banned. True jujitsu is more than just laying on the ground and learning submissions. By that reasoning, we might as well say that Mark Kerr was excellent at jujitsu, but he isn't. He's a wrestler who learned some submissions.

Unfortunately it seems your logic is swayed by men who you see on television. What they say is obviously gospel to you. I however have been fortunate enough to learn from men who are not only legends in the world of jujitsu and combatives, but aren't limited to only one aspect of jujitsu, and even that aspect of (MMA)jujitsu is limited to sporting events. So when you give someone a 9 or 10 for jujitsu, they better be a master at it and not just a guy who has picked up a few submissions and learned how to work from positions like guard, mount, and side mount.



That's not accurate either. Randy Couture would easily get outboxed by an Olympic hopeful. I also believe that he isn't at the level of a Golden Gloves champion, which is basically a skilled child. Being a club fighter could mean that you are below both skill wise. Anyone can be a pro fighter, J-Luck. You don't even have to really be fairly skilled. As far as that being really good for an MMA guy, that's wrong too. Why would someone limit themselves when they could rise to a level where their boxing skills could determine a match? If a MMA guy would stick to it and master those handskills he could be a force to be reckoned with WITHOUT having to roll around on the floor. Just like Crocop, but his left high kick telegraphs much more.



No argument there.




Well to tell you the truth, you not doing anything much different than other people. I like the idea, but when you do that, you're not learning how to transition between ranges which IMO is much more important than being technically sound. Not every great fighter is a technician, and by the standards you've set for yourself that's what you're aiming to become. If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours.

The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown.

You're basically doing what MMA attempts to do but with bigger names. No matter how talented you are, you won't reap the full benefits from any of the schools you attend because your mind can only process but so much.

MMA is a bit smarter than that. They have decided what it is that they wish to accomplish, and they have devised a curriculum to do it. They don't wish to be the best fighters out there. They wish to be able to deal with any range adequately enough to find a way to win, but in a sportive manner. They just wish to be competent enough to compete with whoever is in the ring with them. But that's why they are very limited and are often criticized.

I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind.

This is the reason that MMA gets trashed a lot in the media. Not one fighter in the events has paid his dues to be able to start mixing and matching styles and ranges. Most haven't even mastered just one style, let alone several to be qualified to say what works and what doesn't. Proof of that is that when they enter other events that showcase other styles and ranges that they have supposedly mastered, they lose in embarrassing fashion. The only event that MMA fighters show promise in is the Abu Dhabi, which reinforces the point that MMA has become nothing more than submission wrestling with some sloppy punches and kicks.

If you go by MMA, nothing works but thaiboxing/kickboxing, brawling and BJJ. And hopefully we all know that isn't true.

Ok, lol. You're an arrogant bastard, and it's funny. You feel your experiences and beliefs are so far superior to others that open mindedness is thrown out the window. I have to tell you, you're truly not as intelligent as you feel you are. Maybe in the high average range of I-Q, the rest is fallatiously fabricated in some corner of your mind. Now, to the points.

A. No, my logic is dictated by a high level of intelligence, combined with a high level of understanding as far as logic, reasoning, and thought proccesses are concerned. Your wit is dry, and is fallacious in nature. You need to be superior to someone to look down on them with such arrogance. When you get there, I'll let ya know.

What they say is not gospel to me. I merely stated that their opinion was far superior to yours. I hold to this statement. I didn't say there weren't those out there who weren't more knowledgeable, you just don't fit into this category. Your dry wit, again, gives away your undeserved arrogance. I would consider BJ Penn a legend, also Jacare, while I might not consider the people you worked with anything special at all(of course you haven't stated who they are, but I'm merely stating the possibility).

While you are correct that it came about with the abolishment of weapons in Japan, it is not true that jiu-jitsu lost its deadly aspects, in fact, tournaments frequently ended in death, even while Judo was being developed by Kano.

I do not consider classical jiu-jitsu(traditional jiu-jitsu) to be relevant to this conversation. We are on the MMA forum, discussing MMA, no? And if you take offense to me using the term "jiu-jitsu", then you'll do yourself well to go to another forum, such as combatives. The term "jiu-jitsu" here implies brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Randy is an 8-9 jiu-jitsu practioner. I said it once, now I'm re-stating it.


B. Yea, it is accurate. He is at a low/decent level as far as boxing.

Golden gloves is far more than a skilled child, maybe you should box, and learn that of what you speak?

Ummm, while anyone could be a pro, I wasn't talking about anyone. I was talking about good club level pros. Not anyone. Intelligence would dicate that you understand the context of a conversation before formulating a repsponse.

He has consistently gotten better boxing skills in his career, and therefore held true to your idea that good handskills shouldn't stopped being learned.

Haha, you silly combatives guys. "roll around on the floor". I won't dignify that with any more of a response.

C. There shouldn't be an argument with anything I've said so far... but at least you've been able to recognise ONE OF MY POINTS, without bitchin lol.

D. I can compete with top level people for my experience level. For example, people who have wrestled for 3-4 years, I can compete with. From Iowa, to New York, I have found this to be true. No doubt, I'm not beating 10 year wrestlers, but for my yearly experience, I'm in a top percentile... maybe top 30% for my age and experience. This applies to everything else I train in. I study hard in and outa the gym(with maddd dedication), combined with some(not anything spectacular) athletic skills, and *poof* all of a sudden with my peers of the same experience level(I'm comparing myself to pure stylists) I'm in a reasonably high level of skill and competitive ability. Guess that throws your definitive statments -----"(If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours."---- out the fuckin window.

I also train at a good MMA school, so no, indeed I am learning transition.

"The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown." Wrong again. Like I said, I can't box with someone whos' been doing it for 10 years. NO ARGUMENT. But for my experience, I've been able to get in the ring and go rounds with people in over 6 different gyms in New England and 4 in the South, Mid West, and the West. And compete with them competitively(within my experience level). The same applies to wrestling, though I've never wrestled someone from the West or or South West... Only people from the South, Mid West, North East.

The above portion of response "D" covers your other b.s. points, such as:

"I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind."

No, it does not reinforce that it has become Abu Dhabi with sloppy punches. YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT. That doesn't in any way qualify the statement.

Ummm, thaiboxing, kickboxing, boxing, brazilian jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling, Judo, karate, wrestling(all three major forms) and many, many more styles.
They are more than qualify(individually, or in any various combinations) to end a street fight.