MMA is Not Self Defense!

[Ghost]

You think boxers and MMA fighters don't set things up? They just "react and the fight flows"?

in a street fight?

and you are missing my point, trying to set up an eye gouge against a boxer... think about it.

[TTEscrima]

I looked for some more videos of sport fighting against other types of realistic training. Found one of a boxer against a cop armed with pepper spray, a radio, and a pistol. Boxer is shot in the belly and still manages to beat the cop near to death.

And TTE, would you care to guess what saved our hero the cop in this case?

Backup - his buddies - showed up.

Maybe there's some creedence in all this Army Combatives nonsense after all...

YouTube - Cop Fight For His Life Against Ex-Pro Boxer

Which of these two "trained for reality?" Which one was hindered by all those bad ring habits (like determination, will to win, competitiveness, aggression...)?

Said it before...saying it again,
It's the man, not the style. The firstest with the mostest...

I said it on page 2 or so.

It's about the person and not the art.

Now the pure humor of you trying to portray police officers as trained professionals is worth reading this thread all by it's lonesome. How many videos of cops shooting themselves, their partners or firing 75 rounds and all missing their target do we need to refute that? Now before you start jumping up down pop into any LEO forum and read it, they complain about the piss poor training they receive themselves. Besides you can find plenty of stories of MMA guys dying in streetfights or winding up in the hospital. I know of at at least 2 famous MMA people who are hardened criminals who targeted women and the elderly. What's all this mean? It means it's all about the individual which we already covered eh? Talk about predictable behavior following a script. This is interesting since it seems you're saying MMA is SD, or at least thats the impression all this seems to be intended to give. See the title to the thread, Is MMA SD? That's a yes or no question. I said No and went further to say nothing you learn in any school is, you have to functionalize your training before it becomes SD. All this "what if "and "this one time BS" is just that because ANYTHING could be classified SD in some situations and it only needs to work once for people to want to point it out as proof of its validity.

[TTEscrima]

Gosh. We seem to have strayed a good deal from the whole "Can you use it for self defense" and right on into the "MMA guys can be real assholes" line of logic.

Actually I was simply illustrating that one cop getting beat up by a boxer doesn't prove anything more about using boxing in a gunfight than 2 famous MMA fighters being scumbag criminals proves about MMA fighters being criminals.

As for cops being trained? They are. In reality based methods, no less. And they go hands on with people a whole lot more often than soldiers.

Well "since cops go hands on with people a whole lot more often than soldiers" the fact that one of the most respected LEO officers and trainers I know has a shirt and motto: "You can't tap out on the street" says a lot! So it seems the guys who nearly always have backup and go hands on most find MMA unacceptable for SD. Once again read the LEO forums, the common consensus is it doesn't get the job done.

My contention is that MMA can be used for self-defense, that it has been used for self-defense, and that it going to continue to be used for self-defense into the foreseeable future. Self-defense is the act of defending oneself, yes? If an MMA guy does that successfully (gasp! I know...it's actually happened on occasion), then MMA was self-defense in that instance. May not be your favorite thing to accept, but it does happen.

I've heard of some incredibly stupid reactions to stress that somehow worked out, like the lady who gave the rapist her number and said "I'm too busy now but call me later" And by god it WORKED, sheesh guess that makes it a viable SD technique huh? May not be your favorite thing to accept, but it did happen, so it was self-defense in that instance. Run right out and teach your wives and daughters folks.

[DickHardman]

If you (and others) are going to insist on asserting that sports martial arts are no good for self defense, then you need to have some valid reasons why this professional boxer was able to take out a professionally trained, gun weilding police officer. After all, if the so-called "sport" methods are no good for reality, that never ever should have happened. But it did, and that completely destroys the argument you've been making.

And what do you know? All that boxing didn't seem to affect the boxer's ability to grab, disarm, kick or anything. Odd, isn't it? All those things coming naturally to someone tainted by rules and regulations?

it also destroys that argument you hear the SD guys always use, that you will fight the way you train, no exceptions. they completely disregard the remarkable ability of the human mind to adapt to various situations.

[lb1978]

YouTube - Why Aliveness? Matt Thornton explains

[HERQ454]

The two positions that are coming out in this discussion is one stating sport martial arts are valid(and some stating its all you need) where the other side is stating you need more than the sports martial arts offer(with some stating sports martial arts arent valid).
Lets make it simple.If you use it and it works,IT WORKS.
Do MMA methods and principles cover every possible situation in 'street' situations?NO
Would MMA methods and priciples be great in a 'street' situation.HELL YEAH
Percentage wise in a 'street' situation it probably would be the highest.

The head doorman I work with comes from a boxing background and is phenominal to watch in action.But in one situation his hand swelled up due to infection because he used a closed fist and scraped a bit of knuckle open on the guys tooth.Normally he avoids this and uses palm heel strikes.
Did the boxing fail him,NO.Was there a side effect,Yes.

Remember that quote of Bruce Lee's taking about how different fighters look at combat from their own unique viewpoint and miss the total view.Dont we all agree thats this is a valid point.

[kingoftheforest]

Mind set

I think we can agree to disagree on this topic for sure guys.

At least we all seem confident enough to stick to our guns whatever side we may be on.

The main point I see here is that it boils down to the mind set argument. As an SD guy I have to agree that you will fight like you train, especially in a high stress reactionary situation.

I have never been in a fight where I had time to decide what art I was going to use at that time. Things just happened by instinct. Of course I haven't been in a tournament fight in about 12 years and a majority of my experience has been in the street and beating up drunks as a bouncer, so I don't know how it is in the ring and I can't really comment personally on today's ring mind set.

I have to say though that I keep it in mind in a street fight that if I lose I may be tied up thrown in the truck of a car, raped , shot in the head and buried in a shallow grave in the woods. Not that this has ever happened to anyone before.

Now if this is a possibility in the ring then there is a lot they don't show on UFC pay per views. But I think from what I see the mind set is if you get in too far over your head you can tap and a ref will stop the fight. There is still risk of serious injury but medics are always ring side in a match.

In the street the police and para medics are always minutes away when seconds count.

Just my humble opinion, not trying to change minds or the world just putting out food for thought.

Thanks for reading.
KOTF

[migo]

That's not the first time I've seen that argument, but I fail to see how the mindset would somehow give you a better shot at not getting knocked out cold.

[kingoftheforest]

Once again just what I feel.

That's not the first time I've seen that argument, but I fail to see how the mindset would somehow give you a better shot at not getting knocked out cold.

I guess what it means is if I see every fight as a situation where I could die, then I'd be more apt to be less confrontational and more aware of my surroundings.

I wouldn't pick fights for just any reason and I would try to avoid places and situations where they are likely to occur since my life is worth a lot to me.

Now I am not saying MMA people feel this way and I am not saying there aren't any SD guys who aren't asshole either. This is just the mind set I have.

If you see every fight as a tough man competition you can walk out of or get medical attention for before you die then I feel that maybe you have an unrealistic mind set. Also if you fight every fight with the mind set you might die you train for this.

I doubt that this would not be frowned upon in a ring sport since the object isn't to kill your opponent just incapacitate.

[migo]

I guess what it means is if I see every fight as a situation where I could die, then I'd be more apt to be less confrontational and more aware of my surroundings.

That might be your hypothesis, but the people I run into who appear to have the same attitude you do, get into way more confrontations than I do, and I don't have that attitude. In fact, I can't think of anyone with such an attitude who hasn't ended up in fights. On the other hand I know plenty of people who don't get themselves concerned about the potential outcome of a fight, or even the chance of getting in one in the first place, and they don't get into fights at all.

If you see every fight as a tough man competition you can walk out of or get medical attention for before you die then I feel that maybe you have an unrealistic mind set. Also if you fight every fight with the mind set you might die you train for this.

Big if. I've never met anyone with that attitude. I get a very strong impression that this person is a strawman used by the RBSD crowd, and doesn't even have an avatar that exists in real life.

[kingoftheforest]

Opinions are welcome here.

Well like I said personal experiences will vary from people to people. If those are your and that's what you got out of it by no means am I attempting to change your mind.

But I do have to site that Alex Gong didn't have the mentality that I have but the mentality that you yourself have sited and he was shot while chasing down someone who stole his car from in front of his gym. Instead of calling the police he ran after the thief and confronted him only to meet his end facing the barrel of a gun. ALEX GONG

I don't mean to be rude when I say this but I don't think Alex was that much of a straw dummy.

[migo]

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

[kingoftheforest]

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

Try looking up Carl Cestari (who just recently died of old age) or Bob Kasper who past a while ago of Old age. You could also argue that James Keating is but I'll admit that might be pushing it.

Of course none of these guys saw fighting as a sport but as an instinct bred into humans for survival or battle field combat so of course their celebrity isn't that huge because they don't just go around picking fights, or agreeing to them for money or titles.

Also try looking up Lee Murray Lee Murray Stabbed In Critical Condition - SubFighter.com. He was also in a bit of trouble for some B&E.

For all the RBSD people I have encountered it's about being able to defend yourself when necessary and only then. Avoidance is the key to that. I started a thread awhile ago on here about that same subject. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

KOTF

[TTEscrima]

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

Actions speak louder than words, Alex's actions and mindset are what got him killed, you don't need an interview, the facts speak for themselves.

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

Now you're making shit up and grasping at straws, there are plenty of high profile RBSD guys, two of them died in the last 6 months.















Of old age.

I'm not looking to get drawn into a shitting contest here but I think I'll share a lesson I was taught by an old Master Chief at my first duty station working base security.

We often had fights on base and in base housing and the winner usually didn't stick around so we had to search for them, to aid in that we had a list of the Usual Suspects which hung on the wall.

If it happened in base housing it was a "cassanova" these guys can get laid so they're out doing so instead of hanging in the gym. Look for the pissed off husbands and boyfriends. Side note these guys are also often Dojo Darlings who fold up the first time they get hit, so don't bother looking for the winners in the TMA clubs.

If it happened in the club and no one saw it, check the Judo club.

If it happened in the barracks or the club and witnesses reported a quick KO from out of nowhere then check the boxing club.

If it happened in the mess hall check the wrestling club, find the injured wrestler they almost always hurt themselves on the inanimate objects and the hard floors.

This list proved especially helpful when hunting the trouble makers on board the ship where long hours working and living around the people you work with causes friction.

My 20 years as a Master At Arms taught me that people who view fighting as a sport (a game) tend to get into them more often than the people who view fighting as self defense. People who train with weapons typically think fighting includes these things and as such tend to avoid them far more often than people who view fighting as a sport.

[kingoftheforest]

Just some points

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

MMA could be used for self defense but a frying pan can be used as a weapon too. Would I think a frying pan is the best weapon I could carry to defend myself. Hell no! So if I had to choose between using a frying pan or a knife I choose the knife.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring. When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.
I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Thanks for the opportunity to view things from another angle. It always helps to see a different P.O.V.. Stimulates thought and helps me to understand things in my head a little better.

Sometimes it's hard to pull back and look at things subjectively.

KOTF