Expanding the MMA Arsenal

[Tom Yum]

Thanks to Wasim we were able to view the Le-Shamrock fight. This was the first time to see a San Shou fighter in a high-profile MMA bout, where Le was able to effectively use his moves from his style.

Le was able to get good use of his side kick to the body, keeping Shamrock at mid-distance. When Shamrock timed the kick to counter with his right, Le quickly started following up with spinning back fists. Not really a knockout blow, but enough to put Shamrock on the defensive.

Le also used kick a kick-catch sweep against one of Shamrock's Thai kicks to the mid section but didn't follow Shamrock to the ground for good reason.

Are there any techniques from other styles that you think would work in MMA? Why would they work?

[bigboywasim]

Those low side kicks rocked too.

GSP used the spinning back side kick on Matt Hughes (1.08). He used the axe kick (1.26) while his opponent was on the ground.

[Tom Yum]

How about trapping?

Has anyone been able to use trapping while sparring full-contact?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I don't know about MMA but I was screwing around in Judo today when I was paired against a big feller who was about 100 pounds heavier than me. We basically got within gripping range and he tried to aggressively grab my collar but I essentially stuck my wrist to his and redirected his arm every time he reached, it vaguely resembles Tai Chi push-hands. I was by no means playing seriously and it's not MMA but I thought I'd mention it for sh*ts and giggles .

[treelizard]

Actually, I would certainly mention judo techniques in MMA. Karo Parisyan is a good example. I think every MMA player I've rolled with in the past year or so had a judo background.

[treelizard]

How about trapping?

Has anyone been able to use trapping while sparring full-contact?

No.

'nuff said

[Tom Yum]

Wasim mentioned high, fancy kicks. I think there is plenty of room for growth in this area in the MMA arena - most fighters aren't used to seeing side kicks that much or the follow up kicks that can be thrown from the side position.

For example, lead leg side kick to the mid section to bring the guard down and then lead-leg hook kick to the jaw to hit upstairs then closing with a few punches, since the body comes down if the hook kick goes through or misses.

or side kick, spinning back kick - side kick, spinning wheel kick - side kick, spinning backfist etc.

Tree - As far as judo throws are concerned, I'd have to ask how would they differ from the grappling arsenal employed by the current no-gi MMA grappling arsenal. I'm not really a judoka, so if someone here has a good base of judo knowledge they can explain the difference.

My JKD experience is very limited - I used to attend a few classes now and then at Mousel's - so how would you use trapping in MMA against a decently skilled striker and as a follow up question, would you use boxing strikes or wing chun once you've managed to lock up the attackers hands?

[Guest]

My JKD experience is very limited - I used to attend a few classes now and then at Mousel's - so how would you use trapping in MMA against a decently skilled striker

I wouldn't, my immediate question is why would you feel the need to? My subsequent question is, why feel the need to expand something that clearly works with proven, dominant efficiency?

[treelizard]

Tree - As far as judo throws are concerned, I'd have to ask how would they differ from the grappling arsenal employed by the current no-gi MMA grappling arsenal. I'm not really a judoka, so if someone here has a good base of judo knowledge they can explain the difference.

All I can say is from my own experience the only guys that had throws in their grappling arsenal and could actually execute them instead of just attempting were judo players.

[Tom Yum]

I wouldn't, my immediate question is why would you feel the need to? My subsequent question is, why feel the need to expand something that clearly works with proven, dominant efficiency?

I think boxing is awesome and works very efficiently, but from time to time someone brings a skill set that they can use just as efficiently that catches others off guard and adds to the evolution of MMA.

For example, during the first couple of years in UFC (or Extreme Fighting Championships) the current dogma was that grappling was king because it worked with dominating efficiency.

Strikers got taken down and submitted again and again.

Everyone went out to become the best grappler they could be, including strikers. The strikers figured out how to grapple and were then able to make grapplers play their game (think Mo Smith vs. Silveria or Smith vs. Coleman) and so grapplers had to up their striking game - a good high profile example is Gracie cross training in Hapkido with Master Noni.

We started seeing Gracie throw and trade alot more kicks to his opponents legs and mid section to set up his entry. Other grapplers started catching on to the striking game as well - Couture, Hughes etc.

I've got nothing against boxing - but it would be interesting to see someone get into the octagon, pull out a new bag of tricks and make the striking game just a little more competitive.

I think several guys here are doing just that, cross training in tae kwon do, kenpo, judo and other arts.

[Tant01]

Thanks for bumping the thread Tom... I had a slightly more detailed reply in mind but for now I will simply elude to Judo having little known "MMA" application beyond simply throws with or without a Gi.

In the Kodokan book by Kano he only mentions in passing one simple reason not to linger in a bent forward posture. Of course kicking and punching can be incorporated in Judo as seen with "advanced" Atemiwaza and Kata. (exercises) Knee strikes were not unknown among Jujutsu men attempting to close to grappling (throwing and locking) distance.

If I'm not mistaken head butting was also in the curriculum.

Judo is a "mixed" martial art. Sadly most folks never get to see what's plain from the start, Judo took the world by storm almost a century ago. The shadow of what's left these days is as limited as our narrow minds can make it.

To me MMA is just the newest form of (OLD) judo.

Lets take a look at the Original Kodokan Judo Tournament Rules Circa 1905>>
Rule Number 4. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when from any cause or causes he may become unconscious. But it is not permitted to use serious tricks when the wrestling bout is between friends. Such tricks as kicking and the breaking of arms, legs, and neck are barred.

And Number 8. It is understood and agreed that the Jiu-Jitsu man, whether he fights a boxer or contests with a wrestler, shall be allowed to use in his defense any of the tricks that belong to the art of Jiu-Jitsu.

Never forget the waiver:

Rule number 9. It is further understood and agreed that the Jiu-Jitsu man assumes no responsibility for any injury or injuries caused by any act or thing done during the contest, and that the Jiu-Jitsu man shall be held free and blameless for any such ill effect or injury that may be received during the contest.


The game is the same, only the rules have changed...

[Tom Yum]

Nice.

I suppose MMA is nothing new, just a re-discovery of what was or what might have been if properly organized.

Thanks for putting it in perspective, Tant.

[Tant01]

"Any act or thing done during a contest"... Hmmmm... kinda leaves it wide open, eh?

"...held free and blameless for any such ill effect or injury that may be received during the contest."

Play nice...

[Tom Yum]

It does.

Come to think of it, I remember grappling once with a judoka starting from the ground position - we locked up and at some point while keeping a grip on my gi, he snuck in an uppercut to my chin and said he was attempting a throw when I asked him about it later.

[Guest]

I think boxing is awesome and works very efficiently, but from time to time someone brings a skill set that they can use just as efficiently that catches others off guard and adds to the evolution of MMA.

For example, during the first couple of years in UFC (or Extreme Fighting Championships) the current dogma was that grappling was king because it worked.

Strikers got taken down and submitted again and again.

Everyone went out to become the best grappler they could be, including strikers. The strikers figured out how to grapple and were then able to make grapplers play their game (think Mo Smith vs. Silveria or Smith vs. Coleman) and so grapplers had to up their striking game - a good high profile example is Gracie cross training in Hapkido with Master Noni.

We started seeing Gracie throw and trade alot more kicks to his opponents legs and mid section to set up his entry.

Yes but what you are talking about there Tom is people shifting within parameters that still remain within proven sports specific arts. When you start to throw things like trapping into the equation that is stepping outside of those parameters, and expanding for the sake of expansion.

If I coached a running team I'm sure that each of my athletes would work a little different, some would favour working with weights, some with resistance, some with sprints, some with endurance. If one of my team came and said "hey I want to run the next race on my hands, just to see if I can expand my ability" I would say you do that, but in your own time and not on my team. It carries no benefit to your sport.

Thats my firm believe around trapping in terms of Combat Athletics. If I am wrong, then I would have to pose the question - why we haven't we seen it?