Which martial art for me?

Then you obviously would realize that someone can easily over ride the pain of the thumb lock and continue to pound on you.


Much like some of the top fighters getting their elbows blown by an arm bar and continuing to fight to a win.

Or someone breaking their hand and beating someone with it.


I wouldn't trust any pain compliance move when it comes to SD.

And I wouldn't consider a thumb lock a finishing move. of course I wouldn't consider a rear naked a finishing move either.

....what he said

[M7M]

................................

awesome argument. if ignorance was a martial arts, you'd be a black belt.

[jubaji]

are you kidding me? if the thumb lock is in, you'll be in too much pain to do anything else. you'll move exactly where he wants you too and that includes setting you up for an arm break, etc.

he's also got your wrist in this hold, so the wrist breaks too if you don't move with him.

................................

[M7M]

do you know how difficult it is to get a thumb lock, under stress against a fully resistant opponent?

Your more likely to get you head beaten in trying to go for the lock, than to have the other guy controlled by your lock.

yea if you're some idiot who only knows how to do thumb locks and tries to grab at a thumb that's in a fist heading towards your face....with the other fist following from the other side.

your question is like...."do you know how difficult it is to get a rear naked choke on someone if he's resisting?" or just substitute in any other finishing moves to your question.

but to answer your question, it's pretty easy when i'm sparring in my Gracie BJJ school and the other guy grabs my lapel. i don't put it on hard b/c it's against the rules of Sports BJJ.

but if you're in a bar and some guy grabs you, then that's what these JJJ/Self Defense moves are teaching you for. Professor Wally Jay is obviously demonstrating in that video and putting on a show. but in a street confrontation, you're not going to play around like that....it's all in quick, succeeding motions to lock the thumb, break the wrist, strike or throw him while breaking something else.

no one is saying that thumb holds is ALL there is to JJJ.

it's obvious how well the Gracies market their BJJ. the Gracies also teaches SELF DEFENSE, which are moves such as these....thumb locks....which comes from Japanese Jujutsu. but why do they call it Self Defense and not JJJ? because they don't want to shift the the focus away from BJJ, their money maker. b/c JJJ encompasses all this Self Defense and ground fighting + more.

do you know how difficult it is to get a thumb lock, under stress against a fully resistant opponent?

Your more likely to get you head beaten in trying to go for the lock, than to have the other guy controlled by your lock.

....what he said

[M7M]

Actually buddy, BJJ, GJJ, GBJ is all "JUDO" Some judo schools, as you point out, emphasize newaza a lot more than others. Don't buy it for the name or get confused about what's what. Enjoy your judo even if it's been uprooted and transplanted.

It's all good...

If you want to know the Japanese names for HIP throws and Reaping throws I'm sure you can find them....

See; JUDO.

BJJ is not Judo. They may share many similarities, but BJJ is derived from Japanese Jujutsu (which is where Judo comes from, w/Kano being a better marketer just like how the Gracies are marketing BJJ). Helio Gracie and Carlson Gracie were NOT taught by a Judo master. And Judo players exposes their back often, this is definitely not BJJ.

[M7M]

Not too many real confrontations gonna be finished with a 'thumb lock.'

are you kidding me? if the thumb lock is in, you'll be in too much pain to do anything else. you'll move exactly where he wants you too and that includes setting you up for an arm break, etc.

he's also got your wrist in this hold, so the wrist breaks too if you don't move with him. unless you've got an awesome threshold for pain and can endure your thumb dislocated and your wrist being broken, yea i suppose you can get out of the lock and take a swing while this is happening. but this is assuming that he doesn't take advantage of you being in immediate pain and move onto another technique or simply knee you in the face, jaws, etc. a few times.

[Tant01]

By any other name...

....


....I understand that some Judo schools emphasize newaza a lot more than others. So you could probably get a similar mix of stand-up work and ground grappling at the right Judo school, although I imagine the emphasis would still be on stand-up work.

For my part I've never trained Judo, so I'm glad to have the chance to be learning some simple hip throws, leg reaps, etc. There's also a once-a-week wrestling class that I am looking forward to trying out one of these weeks...

Actually buddy, BJJ, GJJ, GBJ is all "JUDO" Some judo schools, as you point out, emphasize newaza a lot more than others. Don't buy it for the name or get confused about what's what. Enjoy your judo even if it's been uprooted and transplanted.

It's all good...

If you want to know the Japanese names for HIP throws and Reaping throws I'm sure you can find them....

See; JUDO.

[jubaji]

Not too many real confrontations gonna be finished with a 'thumb lock.'

[M7M]

Sounds like he wants Traditional Japanese Jujutsu. It focuses quick joint locks of fingers, elbows, etc. Either ending the confrontation with something as simple as a thumb lock or a throw, immediately followed by a wrist lock or something. Or if you just want to break their arm, etc. Or finish with a vital point strike (which is available in all MAs). Only problem is, it's not that easy when the guy's not giving you his fingers in slow motion like how it's done during training.

The Gracies, who are masters at JJ, knows and teaches this also....but they call it Self Defense. BJJ is more geared toward the sporty aspect and gentlemanly fights vs. dirty finger breaking moves.

An example is Danzan Ryu JJ:

YouTube - Danzan Ryu NYC Jujitsu demo

YouTube - Professor Wally Jay's Dance of Pain

[Lone_Knight]

Judo is pretty cool. You get the throws, and locks/chokes. It's keeping me happy.

[chillaplata]

I recently started training at a Gracie-Barra school, and one of the things I really like about it is that we regularly train takedowns, throws and clinchwork as well as ground work. Typically the first 10-15 minutes of instruction time is devoted to basic throws or takedowns, and then we spend 25-30 minutes training groundwork. Although we don't do standing randori -- we roll on the ground like good BJJers -- we sometimes do standing drills in which one partner will go for a throw or takedown and the other will resist.

I don't know whether all G-B schools follow the same approach, but I think it works very well. I understand that some Judo schools emphasize newaza a lot more than others. So you could probably get a similar mix of stand-up work and ground grappling at the right Judo school, although I imagine the emphasis would still be on stand-up work.

For my part I've never trained Judo, so I'm glad to have the chance to be learning some simple hip throws, leg reaps, etc. There's also a once-a-week wrestling class that I am looking forward to trying out one of these weeks...

[jubaji]

I thought BJJ would be more appropriate for the submission type holds to be able to throw people out of establishments..

But wrestling has more of a focus on positional dominance without the commitment to sometimes compromising positions of JJ submissions and sacrifice throws of judo. A wrestler will also likely be more comfortable/experienced in establishing dominant position and taking the back while standing.

[GQchris]

I thought BJJ would be more appropriate for the submission type holds to be able to throw people out of establishments..

[jubaji]

Wrestling, of course!