The Blade Has an Important Place in MMA Study

[MasterKaliSilat]

Have you ever wondered why so many mixed martial artists study the blades of Kali? The Philippine blade sciences have one important fact. Kali practice in the beginning starts with rattan stick(s). Rattan, because it's lightweight and has a great deal of strength, so it makes for a fine tool to acclimate the eye to the speed of the weapon. Thus making your reaction time shorter, an essential aspect of all the science.

So it goes without saying, speed is an essential aspect of every practice in martial arts. And to say the least, Kali has gained momentum that's unparalleled in the weapon arts, perhaps for some other reason it got started because Bruce Lee made the practice, and his hands were extreme. Perhaps many people found it somewhat more realistic because the empty hand was never the way in real battle.

[fire cobra]

Have you ever wondered why so many mixed martial artists study the blades of Kali? The Philippine blade sciences have one important fact. Kali practice in the beginning starts with rattan stick(s). Rattan, because it's lightweight and has a great deal of strength, so it makes for a fine tool to acclimate the eye to the speed of the weapon. Thus making your reaction time shorter, an essential aspect of all the science.

So it goes without saying, speed is an essential aspect of every practice in martial arts. And to say the least, Kali has gained momentum that's unparalleled in the weapon arts, perhaps for some other reason it got started because Bruce Lee made the practice, and his hands were extreme. Perhaps many people found it somewhat more realistic because the empty hand was never the way in real battle.

I think the empty hands of boxing and Muay Thai/MMA are completley different to training with weapons,the timing/range of a 24 inch stick is very different to jab cross etc,personally i wouldnt use weapons to help my empty hand training,as an example i have trained in Krabee Krabong and although i love the art it hasnt helped my Muay Thai skills one bit,but it has helped my sword/staff skills.

[sikal]

Weapons training can help empty hands - especially the way weapons are trained in the FMA. We don't see any particular difference. Hands, elbows, head, knees and feet are weapons, too.

The principles involved don't change and the movement itself only changes a little from weapon to weapon - mostly it depends on the range you're in.

I was pretty sure that weapons training could help empty hands before '01 but in '01 I was put into an interesting situation where I was able to see firsthand with a number of students.

I was teaching a weapons class at a school in TX. The school's primary training was empty hands but the weapons class had a pretty strong contingent, too. I taught there for about 2 years. During that time there were 3 basic types of students:
(a) students who focused primarily on empty hands
(b) students who focused primarily on weapons
(c) students who trained both regularly

As far as the curriculum went, the people who devoted themselves primarily to one method or the other advanced through the ranks somewhat quicker (not a lot quicker but noticeable to the instructors). But the people who were doing both, without exception, wound up being the "better" martial artist.

People who trained in both had a deeper understanding of the empty hands material than equivalent ranked students who only trained empty hands. People who trained in both had a deeper understanding of the weapons material than equivalent ranked students who only trained weapons.

The empty hand training helped their weapons understanding and the weapons training helped their empty hands training.

Mike

[Guest]

I completely agree Fire Cobra, and to be frank I thought the post was a very tenuous attempt to push a FMA agenda into the MMA forum.

I disagree with the opening statement, none of the MMA fighters I know waste a second of valuable training time on anything that isn't sports specific. I think we are confusing Crosstraining with competitive MMA. Many crosstraining arts, JKD Concepts as a prime example, blend weapons and empty hand. However, Mixed Martial Arts competitors will focus purely on the training that increases their percentages in a fight.

I agree with Fire Cobra's assessment of weaponry, the two carry separate and distinct purposes, with some very small crossovers which to be honest I have always found hard to substantiate under any form of pressure. I have been training the blade, stick and empty hand for a long time, and my view is that weapons develop the weaponry and the empty hand develop the empty hands.

I know there are many theories and concepts about the benefits of weaponry for empty hand that I am supposed to take on faith. To be honest, and I'm sure every MMA competitor would agree, I don't have time to take things on faith when a guy is waiting to take my head off. With the superb training in empty hand stand up, clinch and ground we have at our disposal in 2008, anything that isn't sports specific or proved in the arena is surplus to requirement. That's just evolution.

[sikal]

Ironically, I agree with you guys, too. I intended to put this in my first post but had to cut it short to go run some errands.

As I said I have seen that weapons training can help empty hand understanding - and vice versa.

But I don't think an MMA fighter will be able to take advantage of it because of the difference in mindset.

MMA fighters - as you guys have pointed out - require "immediate gratification."

I classify material in 3 categories.
(1) Foundational material - material that isn't directly applicable but builds attributes that are directly applicable (this might include things like jumping rope - you won't actually do that in the ring but the cardio it gives you has benefits in the ring).
(2) Present material - material that is directly applicable in the short term. It's material that works for me right now. This is the MMA fighter's bread & butter - and something I think is overlooked by a lot of "TMA" practitioners (and I'm coming from a perspective that is closer to TMA than MMA).
(3) Future material - material that is trained with an eye toward ... the future :-D

Future material is very difficult for MMA fighters to reconcile. It's not useful to them in the short term so it's not worth their time to train (I'm not saying this is right or wrong - it's just a fact inherent in their preferred training methodology). Future material can include things like developing really good timing to compensate for the decrease your speed will suffer as you age. It can also include material that doesn't work for you now but might work for you in the future. And it can include material that may never work for you but you retain it because it may work for one of your students at some point.

I know that weapon training can augment empty hand training & vice versa but this cross training kind of falls into the category of "future material" because it's not immediately applicable and the benefits aren't particularly quick in coming.

Mike

[fire cobra]

I completely agree Fire Cobra, and to be frank I thought the post was a very tenuous attempt to push a FMA agenda into the MMA forum.

I disagree with the opening statement, none of the MMA fighters I know waste a second of valuable training time on anything that isn't sports specific. I think we are confusing Crosstraining with competitive MMA. Many crosstraining arts, JKD Concepts as a prime example, blend weapons and empty hand. However, Mixed Martial Arts competitors will focus purely on the training that increases their percentages in a fight.

I agree with Fire Cobra's assessment of weaponry, the two carry separate and distinct purposes, with some very small crossovers which to be honest I have always found hard to substantiate under any form of pressure. I have been training the blade, stick and empty hand for a long time, and my view is that weapons develop the weaponry and the empty hand develop the empty hands.

I know there are many theories and concepts about the benefits of weaponry for empty hand that I am supposed to take on faith. To be honest, and I'm sure every MMA competitor would agree, I don't have time to take things on faith when a guy is waiting to take my head off. With the superb training in empty hand stand up, clinch and ground we have at our disposal in 2008, anything that isn't sports specific or proved in the arena is surplus to requirement. That's just evolution.

And i in turn agree fully with your post Michael.

Also may i add that if i was to compete in a Stick Fighting competition i wouldnt Thai Box or Box.

If and it is a if, there is any crossover it may be with a small knife in the hand still using good Boxing(Western style).

[Jujujason]

Michael Wright hit the nail right on the head with his reference of sports specificity. I'm not discrediting Filipino martial arts/weaponry training at all. I love 'em and train 'em myself and I think that weaponry training is important for street minded martial artists.

However, you guys gotta remember that mma athletes are working with the same 24 hour day that everyone else is. They've gotta cover a lot of arts (boxing, muay Thai, Greco/Freestyle wrestling, judo/bjj), ranges (standing striking, standing clinch, and grappling) plus conditioning (weights, running, plyos, stretching, etc.) in addition to planning all their meals, travel, possibly work, family-commitments and getting enough rest. Just where exactly do you think they're going to be able to fit weaponry???

I also agree that this was just a thinly veiled attempt by a kali guy to convince mma/bjj guys of the importance of his views. Just my two cents. Peace, J~

[sikal]

To take a bit of a tangent here ...

I think the Filipino MA get something of a bum rap in the MA world. When people think of FMA they think "stick fighting" or they think "blades" or they think "weapons." There is, of course, good reason for that.

But the FMA also have strong empty hand skills for both striking & grappling - the specific set and depth of skills varies from system to system and instructor to instructor but overall they have good empty hand stuff that can directly compliment an MMA fighter's repertoire. There are even some FMA instructors who have put together programs specifically for this - either as an MMA game unto itself or as a supplemental package.

Not that you should dump your MT or boxing or BJJ or whatever in lieu of the FMA - just pointing out that the FMA often get completely overlooked by the MMA community when, in fact, they do have something to offer that community (again depending on the system/instructor you have access to the value you may find in it can vary greatly).

Like I said - tangent to the original thread and I'm not trying to hijack it but it seemed like an appropriate place to point this common misconception out.

Mike

[Jujujason]

Again, I totally agree with you. I think that kali probably does get overlooked or snubbed to some degree or another, especially the empty hand portion of it (panantukan, dumog and sikaran). However, you've gotta remember that mma is a modern sport that combines other sports with long track records of success (and yes, I'm fully aware of the FMA have kept the PI from ever being conquered and how's that for success argument). These other sports have developed techniques and been proven in RECENT competion against uncooperative opponents that don't give a damn about your feelings or agenda. The bottom line is, until someone starts pulling these techniques off consistently and successfully at a high level of mma competion, they won't be widely accepted or adopted.

[Guest]

Agreed (again!)

In terms of Kali empty hand - There is a ground level of the art that offers some very effective basics, which I think most people can make use of in some aspect. Basic boxing hands alongside some very useful dirty methods using the forearms and elbows. Good use of knees and headbutts, and the more simple and ballistic destructions can be very useful for the street.

If you keep it simple and direct, I do think Kali empty hands has some niche offerings for MMA fighters; some of my teachers have incorporated it into their instruction of MMA athletes. I do think it serves purely as an optional supplement, I don’t think the core MMA systems will widely change, because like J says - they don’t need to.

The problem I see with FMA empty hand is that there is a large portion of the art that relies upon a higher level of fine motor skills. Most students are able to reach a base competency in the art, but from that point on it does tend to be very much determined by talent and natural ability. I see lots of people teaching complex Panantukan movements that look really cool against a compliant partner in a demo. However, when they start to sell these finer points as a realistic option in the street, or against a competent ring fighter, I find it ambitious at best.

People see incredibly talented individuals such as Guro Inosanto, Rick Faye, Paul Vunak etc doing amazing things with Panantukan on DVD or at a seminar, and they mistake the level of the art with the level of the individual. The incredible skill that these guys show with the art cannot be emulated by the average practitioner, and I think that a large portion of the art is purely attribute based. That means for the majority of us, if we try to utilise these fine motor skills in a real altercation or against a strong athlete, we’ll end up on the floor.

[sikal]

The bottom line is, until someone starts pulling these techniques off consistently and successfully at a high level of mma competion, they won't be widely accepted or adopted.

LOL. Yup. It's something of a Catch-22, though - if the MMA community overlooks the FMA then it won't get used in MMA much and it doesn't see much use in MMA then it will continue to be overlooked

Ah well.

The thing I always find humorous about the whole "TMA" vs. "MMA" discussions (not that this has really been such a critter - it's just got me thinking about the ones I have seen).

The biggest difference between TMA & MMA is the mindset behind the training methodology. Both are valid but different people will be attracted to one or the other for different reasons. Just like - within the context of MMA - some people favor striking & others favor grappling & some favor lower body aspects of striking & other favor upper body aspects of striking.

So it really just boils down to which approach best suits the individual. And just because I favor a particular approach now doesn't mean I won't change my mind in a few years - and change it again in a few more years

Just some random tangential thoughts.

Mike

[Tant01]

You know what's fun? Watching the evolution of combat sports and ARTS over the last half century or so.

Perhaps it is my own perspective as well and the limited exposure I've had to various styles over the years...???

Almost the same thing happened in the last part of the 19th C with jujutsu (JUDO) It swept across the world much like MMA today.

Personally I think Kali is the art to defeat other arts... It may be the very best method of finding our own weaknesses...

The enemy has always been ignorance. I don't mean to imply anything at all but we always have room to grow.

Or not...

[Jujujason]

I think that kali is probably the art to defeat all other arts as well, especially since one of the twelve areas of kali is the study of firearms (.45, 9mm & shotgun), but only in a situation in which it is permissible to seriously injure or kill the other guy. I doubt very seriously if this'll ever get approved or widely accepted, thus necessitating the transfer of this thread to the urban combatives section (?) from the MMA section.

[Tant01]

"I'll allow it!"

I think that kali is probably the art to defeat all other arts as well, especially since one of the twelve areas of kali is the study of firearms (.45, 9mm & shotgun), but only in a situation in which it is permissible to seriously injure or kill the other guy. I doubt very seriously if this'll ever get approved or widely accepted, thus necessitating the transfer of this thread to the urban combatives section (?) from the MMA section.

Mills Lane...

[William]

Just as an FYI,
one of my former students is the strength and conditioning coach for Kenny Florian and some other UFC fighters. In one of our last conversations he mentioned using some of the PTK footwork drills as part of his training regimen for the fighters. He’s never mentioned training PTK open hand with them and I doubt that he does.
I think the extensive footwork training can certainly benefit MMA fighters in developing speed, timing, power, and fluidity. The thing to remember about training edged & impact weapons is that you can’t afford to take hits. Not that you want to stand and exchange blows hand to hand, but with weapons it’s vital to train to hit without being hit. That’s why footwork is so strongly emphasized in the FMA’s. Footwork is key to offensive and counter-offensive mobility. Even a grappler needs to develop footwork to maneuver and gain advantage in closing. It is the key to all fighting strategies. How much he works them on it I can’t say, but the conditioning aspect alone of the Pekiti-Tirsia footwork drills would be a huge benefit. Add to that the development of mobility, power, timing, and speed and it’s a win/win situation.

Personally I find that the FMA’s make my MT/open hand much more fluid. You still have that raw devastating power of the Muay Thai, but your footwork and mobility is much smoother. My MT guys, and even the MMA guys in the gym come to my Pekiti classes to train these drills.

Regards,
William