All that one finger lock stuff looks cool in a cooperative demonstration, but I highly doubt their effectiveness in an all out fight. Sometimes its hard enough to simply secure a hold on a guy's arm, and the arm is a big target. In the ruckus and commotion of a fight, do you really want to go hunting for one little digit while he's throwing you around and punching you repeatedly? Besides, even if you break a finger, what's that going to do? In a real fight I don't think a serious assailant will yield control to you just for having control of one finger, unless he has extremely low pain tolerance. And even if you break a finger he can still punch and grab you So basically it would be little more than an annoyance. That is why those techniques aren't allowed in MMA competition...they serve no purpose! All fairy tales aside, you are not going to gain complete control of someone when your leverage is limited to manipulating one finger. It would not be enough to incapacitate a guy or make him submit and it also doesn't really put you in a dominant position the way a choke or armbar would. You'd just be doing pointless damage to your opponent's body. Personally, i'd leave this kind of stuff to those fat old sensei's who are seeking harmony with their chi.
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Small Joint Locks and Manipulation?
Collapse
X
-
I disagree that small joint locks are ineffective. The reason they are banned from competition is because they are dangerous. To say that if you just break the guys fingers you will piss him off is like saying if you just armbar him and break his arm you will just piss him off.
Anyone that has seriously played around with finger locks knows they are effective. I have used them and had them used on me in grappling situations and they work great. People that say they are ineffective have usually never experienced a well applied one.
Most security personell know the effectiveness of finger locks. Sometimes I find the attitude of sport BJJ guys very arrogant. To say finger locks are ineffective is pure arrogance.
Mike, if you want a good tape just on finger locks and small joint manipulation go to amazon.com and look for Wally Jays small circle Jiu Jitsu series. I think tape number 3 or 4 is all on finger locks. Very good tape.Last edited by Shimora; 05-30-2001, 10:38 AM.
Comment
-
It's funny that Cops were mentioned and the words "if you tried that in a real fight..." came afterwards. Cops are probably the very few people who get into real fights every day at work
The reason you see cops pulling off wrist lock come alongs, etc. is because the assailant is not fighting back, and the officer's presence is more than enough to quell the situation. Bouncer's do this too. When cops actually fight for real (for their lives) they usually use judo and grappling systems just like the rest of us.
(Well when not pulling their gun and ordering the attacker on his bellythe best self-defense move if you ask me...)
Ryu
Comment
-
"Wally Jays small circle Jiu Jitsu series. I think tape number 3 or 4 is all on finger locks"
Hey guys, does anybody have these tapes. I'm just asking because I want to find out for sure (before I order) which one is on finger locks. Amazon doesn't have any titles or descriptions on these tapes to give any indication which one is the finger lock one?!
What is the thing to do? I guess if I emailed Amazon they would probably tell me which one it is.
Anyway if anybody has the tapes I would greatly appreciate if you could share which one is on finger locks.
Anyway, thanx again Shimora, I was very surprised at how difficult it has been to find small joint lock tapes, because they are usually hidden in some Aikido or Hapkido set, where you have no idea which tape(s) contain the finger locks.
Mike
Also,
I agree with what you said Ryu.
Comment
-
Here's the secret....
They're opportunistic techniques in that you don't "go for them" If you get a hold of a finger ya just bend it. That's why so many finger locks are taught, it's shape memory in the hand. You don't really get a chance to use them but if you find yourself with a finger in your hand, Why Not?
Comment
-
Next time you are caught in a rear naked,try to open it up by grabbing a couple of fingers on the hand behind your head.It will open like a flower.Thats why you are taught to also use a fist instead.To protect your fingers.Fingers breaking is something used as a form of release.It will definately make it harder for your oponent to hang on to you.But,it may not end a fight.Unless the opponent has a low pain threshold.
You can use them to get a position on an arm that otherwise may not come out ,When you go for an armbar and he is holding.You have a number of ways to get him to release,but on the street a finger is fast and effective for getting a release.
Comment
-
I don’t know how relevant to the discussion this is, but a quick story. I was in a bar fight many years ago. I won the fight. I walked over to the table and went to pick up my beer and noticed my hand wasn’t working right. Upon closer examination the reason for my lack of manual dexterity became apparent. My thumb was on top of my hand pointing back at my elbow joint. I no longer had an opposable thumb.
I don’t know how it happened. I didn’t feel it happen. It had absolutely no effect on me. I had one beer in me when the fight broke out. The funny thing was, when the fight was over and I realized it felt “funny” when I tried to pick up my beer and looked down at my hand…THEN it started hurting. LOL! Matter of fact, in all honesty, I got slightly shocky. By the time I got to the hospital it was hurting pretty bad. I still have one thumb that is a half inch shorter than the other. The doctors wanted to operate and pin it together, but I refused. Finally one old Doc took a stab at setting it. It was never the same.
This man was trying to kill me. He walked up and tried to take my head off with a beer stein. (had something to do with a woman) Massive full adrenaline dump. Never even felt it happen, and it was the most hideous finger break I have ever seen.
Comment
-
Mickey,From your story it sounds like it happened so fast you didnt know about it.Have you ever had a finger pulled back slowly?Quite different I think.In the heat of a fight alot of injuries arent felt untill it is over.Especially when it happens fast.But to have it done slowly by someone with position gives you the full effect of the pain.I agree that it is not something you go for to stop a fight.But,done at the right time can help escape bad positions.
Comment
-
I don’t disagree with anything you wrote Dan. The mind is a funny thing. If intellectually you know you are being hurt, it WILL hurt. I was in no pain until I looked at my hand. Suddenly I wanted to throw up and it started hurting. And you are correct in stating that it was over fast. The entire fight was over fast. I was also afraid for my life. There was no “throw in the towel” or “tap out” option available on this one and I knew it. I think when that happens your body goes on automatic pilot. Hopefully the data entry has been good enough to carry you through.
If he had slowly bent my thumb back and I knew it was happening and I could hear it cracking, I have no doubts it would have hurt. Still, quitting was not an option on this one.
Also, you can get an adrenaline shot when competing or even when training with someone who worries you a bit. But its like comparing a cup of coffee to an 8-ball of coke. (not that I have any experience with that…) It’s a whole nuther ball game when there is no one there to help you or stop it and your man is trying to kill you. I have read of instances where men took 10 9mm trunk shots and were still up and returning fire. Life and death adrenaline dump.
By all means, bust their fingers. I’m not saying it can’t work, I’m just saying don’t depend on it for instant results. You may get to them with it, but you might not either.
Comment
-
Mickey,you are so on target with the different levels of adrenilin dump being different in situations.I thought my adrenilin was pumping in classes.Then I remembered how it was when I was in real fights and what it was like when I was in TKD tournys and then in just verbal confrontations.All very different.But,all those experiances help to give you control of it.You know when it's building and when to use it or let it go.
Comment
-
finger locks do piss somoene off if you break them but you have no idea how bad it hurts bud.....your pinky can bring mroe tpain then yo ucan imagine. also for mma stuff i would focus more on other joint locks from aikido, those have worked against guys MUCH bigger then me. i tapeed someone 80 pounds heavier with an aikido armlock. look into it seriously, it does work if applied right...dont expect the aikido fottwork or throws to do jack crap though, not at a beginner level anyways. that takes a long time.
Comment
-
Mike,
I did a bit of research and the number 4 tape is he best one for finger locks. Both 1 & 2 cover basic finger manipulation but 4 takes it to a new level. If you want a good tape on finger locks go for Wally Jay number 4.
Here is a link
The lead time was 4-6 weeks. I believe that http://www.blackbeltmag.com also sell it so it may be worth having a look.
Hope this helps.
Comment
-
Mike
I just looked at the Black Belt site and it is actually Volume 5 that is the one and not 4 like I said.
This is how Black Belt describe Vol 5.
"Volume 5: Discussed are the principles of learning highly effective finger locking techniques for self-defense applications. "
I hope you didnt already buy number 4
Comment
Comment