Did you just grab my a$$? Re Pride 14

[hounddog]

Yes. I believe he thinks like a jiu jitsu fighter and acquiesces at every situation that he could meet with force. He should further develop his sprawl. When he got in the clinch with Herring he actively tried to take him down where he was not going to finish or even punish Herring and we all know that. **At this point, he was choosing to go to the ground, not stand up and try to strike.

He should also better his kick defense. If he could keep it standing for 3 rounds I think he would have a chance to KO Herring, which is the only way he would ever beat him.

Why would a great boxer come out, get in a clinch and try to take their opponent down?? He should come out with the same game plan ala Liddell, Rizzo and Silva.

-hD

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

How can you complain about the way he fights? Its his choice. You know not only is a he a great boxer, but he's also a black belt in BJJ. Ever heard of this martial art? The one you try to use when you're being overpowered, not boxing a guy whose bigger than you and also a good striker in his own right. Vitor did the smart thing and fought the fight to win, exactly like Pat Militech does everytime and people rave about his greatness. Well what about Vitor who, IMO, beat a guy I hardly expected him to beat. Hell, I also believed before I saw the fight that the decision was probably pretty bad. Yet it was a good decision...

[hounddog]

Who saw an ass whooping from Herring?? I saw no ass whooping by anyone.

and I agree with you... why the hell didn't Vitor knock the pee pee out of Southworth?? Because he's jiu jitsu minded.

I'm not saying that Herring didn't have anything to do with Vitor's inability/lack of effort to KO. I'm just saying that if it was Vitor's game plan to KO Herring he wouldn't be trying to shoot double legs and throw him from the clinch. Back out and punch like Pedro, Liddell, etc.
-hD

[hounddog]

HSC -

I'm a fight fan. I saw the fight. I think Vitor should have stayed on his feet. I guess its ridiculous for me to have an opinion.

In this day and age, if you try to play the soft ground game against someone like Herring, you will not win most of the time.

Vitor's boxing is superior to Herring's. His kick defense is not however and that cost him. Because Herring is pretty complete, Vitor chooses to take it to the ground.

To even compare Vitor to Miletich is ridiculous. Pat can box, kick, sprawl, shoot, submit..... all of the above plus he fights with a sound game plan. He doesn't go for the takedown immediately upon getting in a clinch when he should stay on his feet.

That is the difference between Vitor and other fighters with stand up skills. They try to stay up as they believe in their skills. He doesn't.
-hD

[Zhoozhitsu]

HD,

I'm gonna watch that fight again tonight just because of you. Vitor would only go for takedowns when he clinched w/ Herring. You never saw him going for a takedown left to his own devices. And that was a sound strategy IMO. Staying clinched w/ that monster was insane. Herring was the one clinching, so it's obvious that he was in no mood to let Vitor break out of the clinch to throw punches. Being outweighed by a bunch to Herring, Vitor did the correct thing by going for takedowns. Had he tried to break free of the clinches or stay passive, he'd have been tossed around like a rag doll.

Remember Vitor's fight w/ Couture, when he was, as you gentlement put it, in major striking mode? He wasn't able to unleash on Couture either. The few punches the threw from the clinch was more because Couture wanted that exchange, not Vitor.

And the reason why Vitor didn't pee on Southworth standing up is because he was too busy doing it on the ground.

Remember, apart from the titless dude (forgot his name) and Silva, all of Vitor's opponents whom he had dispatched w/ standup striking were p*ss poor boxers. Tank was just a fat f*ck w/ major brawling ability. There was no rhyme or reason in his boxing skills.

[hounddog]

Cool. I am going to watch it again, too.

Are you saying that Vitor's boxing skills aren't that great? Not sure if you think that or not. I guess I'm really not making that argument one way or another. He did beat up on Silva and Telligman. I would argue that his ground skills will not pay the bills in MMA and if he want's to dispatch of any well rounded fighter he best do it with his fists of fury, not his helicopter sweep to armbar.
-hD

[Zhoozhitsu]

Vitor has one of the best hands, if not THE best hands in boxing. Yvel has very good hands and probably the most powerful kicks. But how often do you seen Yvel knocking people out w/ kicks? It's because his opponents won't let him.

Herring didn't allow Vitor to unleash his barrages if I recall correctly, neither did Couture.

[hounddog]

I rewatched the fight. I don't know what criteria was used by the judges so I don't really have comment on the decision.

From my point of view:

Herring was the aggressor on the feet. Vitor back pedalled the whole time and ate kicks and at least one knee. To his credit, he turned those kicks into takedown opportunities.

Because Vitor got the takedowns, I feel he shared 50/50 in dictating the fight.

Vitor spent a lot of time turtled up. A lot of time. If there was a running clock on the screen I would have summed his time spent turtled. I don't think you should win a fight when you spend a solid percentage of the fight turtled up. Herring had some decent shots while Vitor turtled.

Vitor didn't do any damage on the ground to Herring. I don't know how Herring received that cut by his eye.

Each of them had some nice reversals on the ground.

I saw many opportunities where Vitor could have tried to disengage while in the clinch and ATTACKED with punches. Counter punching a big guy like Herring who leads with rear round house kicks and straight knees proved to be not so effective.

I think Vitor needed to attack Herring with punches to beat him. Not wait for Herring to load up a big kick for Vitor to eat on the way in.

If you think about it, Vitor is BJJ black belt and he showed he wanted to go the ground with Herring. Why not come out firing? What's the worst that can happen? He extends himself and Herring takes him down? Big deal. That's where they ended up anyway. I say since boxing is Vitor's forte and he has solid ground skills to boot, then go for the KO by being aggressive.
-hD

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Bah!

Vitor fought on the ground and won the fight. If he would've fought standing up I predict the same outcome of the Couture fight. Vitor fought a smart fight and won. He didn't do any damage? Other than the fantom cut underneath Herring's eye; Vitor in the 3rd round had Herring in side control who was giving his back and Vitor was throwing brutal knees to his back. As sad as that may sound, that looked like the most punishment either guy took. Vitor could've fought to win by KO or Submission, but against a guy like Herring you don't get too many chances to make mistakes.

I thought of it this way; after watching the fight did I believe that if Herring was Vitor's size would Vitor win? The answer is obviously yes. He's a better figher who fought passively because he was smaller. Why does Vitor get the critism when Herring fought only maybe a little more agressively.

[hounddog]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hookah Smokin Caterpillar
Bah!

Vitor fought on the ground and won the fight. If he would've fought standing up I predict the same outcome of the Couture fight.

--You never know. I would agree with you if Vitor was able to G&P on Herring. Instead, he spent his time turtled.


Vitor fought a smart fight and won. He didn't do any damage? Other than the fantom cut underneath Herring's eye; Vitor in the 3rd round had Herring in side control who was giving his back and Vitor was throwing brutal knees to his back. As sad as that may sound, that looked like the most punishment either guy took.

-- Please tell me you are kidding. I saw a few knees thrown. If you call those brutal, which I don't, you have to acknowledge the kicks and knees Herring threw that Vitor ate while standing.

Vitor could've fought to win by KO or Submission, but against a guy like Herring you don't get too many chances to make mistakes.

--I guess that is my point. Vitor didn't fight to win. He passed up chances to stand up and throw down and instead chose to take it to the ground. And I agree that if you mess up against Herring and you will lose.


I thought of it this way; after watching the fight did I believe that if Herring was Vitor's size would Vitor win? The answer is obviously yes. He's a better figher who fought passively because he was smaller. Why does Vitor get the critism when Herring fought only maybe a little more agressively.

--I didn't take size into the equation. I figure if you step into the ring its who fights the better fight.

--I guess I am not interested in watching a fighter step into the ring and his only intention is to get the decision. That's what it looked like Vitor was doing and I believed that Herring was trying to finish.
--hD

[hounddog]

Zhoozhitsu obviously agrees with me which is the reason for the lack of response.

[Zhoozhitsu]

No I disagree w/ Vitor changing his strategy to strike. I don't think it was up to him. If he could punch on his feet, he would've. Granted he could've put more effort into making it happen, but at the same time, he would've made himself more vulnerable to getting slammed by Herring.