Will Vitor throw a flurry at Tito?

[Zhoozhitsu]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
LOL at Pit and Zhoo...just like the good old days, huh?

Yes, just like the gold old days when Pit Dog spoke from little experience and a ton of bias, resulting in little substance in his posts.

[Cooter]

IIRC, Vitor actually regained his feet twice against Couture, and Couture looked more cautious while in side mount / scarf hold than against any other opponent, as he felt that Vitor could reverse him if he got too aggressive. That (220 lb) version of Vitor would escape from underneath Tito pretty easily, but the smaller version will have a tougher time.

As in most Belfort fights, this one's difficult to call, because no one really knows whether he'll fold if things don't go his way. Judging by the Herring fight, I think he won't--Belfort by decision.

[Zhoozhitsu]

It's not as if an unfolded Vitor can beat anybody. He didn't fold against Heath Herring, but he still took more of a beating than he dished out.

Also, in the Couture fight, Couture wasn't aggressively pursuing a takedown, probably because of Vitor's ground skills like you mentioned. Couture was content tying up Vitor and throwing punches from the inside. Whereas Tito will aggressively try to take Vitor down.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

I think we might see a replay of the Fujita vs. Shamrock fight with Tito playing Fujita and Vitor playing the part of Ken S. Vitor can always utilize the sprawl n' brawl strategy that could really mess up Tito. A few punches from Vitor after a missed shot by Tito can really faze Tito more than Shamrock's did to Fujita. If the fight goes to the ground, the underrated Vitor will hold his own. I saw someone earlier mention how Vitor going to Bobby Southworth's back was slow. I say you're crazy. If it was slow, Bobby would've been able to get out of that position without Vitor getting his hooks in. Vitor got 3rd in his division at the ADCC didn't he? That's very impressive, not to mention he is a Carlson black belt and he used to (?) train with the Top Team who have some crafty groundfighters named Murillo something or other and some guy named Sperry. Anyway, I can see Vitor even subbing Tito with something real sneaky. I know that Frank Shamrock, who is better at subs than Vitor, couldn't do one to a much worse Tito Ortiz than today's. So how can Vitor? I just think he might be able to pull something off because he is not only Tito's size, but taller too isn't he?

[Pit Dog]

The armchair warrior said,
"The Couture fight is a poor example to use as a measuring stick. That fight went to the ground once, and Couture still got sidemount on Vitor. When they stood up, Vitor went horizontal for good."

Response:
Why is it a poor example? Vitor was unhurt and untouched on the ground, and got right back up from the sidemount. Surely if Couture couldn't hold him down, Tito couldn't either.

The armchair warrior said,
"Not if I’m not driving tomorrow :^). It’s possible I could get into a car wreck tomorrow, but if my driving record is clean, I’d bet all my money on not getting into a car wreck tomorrow. "

Response:
LMAO

The armchair warrior said,
"Who said Vitor would be on his back the whole time? This fight may transition to the ground and back a few times, but Vitor is not likely to be on top when they hit the deck."

Response:
You said this, and I quote: "Since Vitor will be on his back, the judges will give the fight to Tito." Or did I miss something? The fact is, everytime it "transitions back and forth" Tito is vulnerable to a KO.

The armchair warrior said,
"Beating himself as in not preparing adequately for the fight, or making an uncharacteristic mistake like going for a flying fish hook."

Response:
At least he doesn't beat himself as you do after every visit to doodie.com

The armchair warrior said,
"Whatever dude. Still buried in the dog fighting world I see."

Response:
Well, when did Tito lose to Frank? Answer: when he QUIT. Quitting is the ultimate sign of not being a true fighter. Since both are proven quitters, the question is, who will quit first.

The armchair warrior said,
"Who said Vitor doesn’t stand a chance to win? I was making the case that he is not likely to win. Anyone has a chance. I consider Vitor to be Tito’s 3rd toughest opponent after Frank and Silva."

Response:
Oh, I thought you said this. I consider Vitor to be the #1 contender, since he whipped Silva's a$$ and is a better athlete than Shamroid.

The armchair warrior said,
"What’s the most likely scenario? Tito taking Vitor down, or Tito failing to do so AND Vitor knocking his lights out?"

Response:
Both are equally likely.

The armchair warrior said,
"You can’t keep an elite wrestler on his back for long. If Vitor manages to reverse Tito and get on top, I can almost guarantee you Tito won’t stay in the bottom for long."

Response:
Elite wrestler? What national title has Tito won? He is hardly an elite wrestler.

The armchair warrior said,
"Frank is a survival machine w/ superior stamina. He wasn’t able to do anything to Tito until Tito gassed out. Vitor will not outlast Tito in the stamina game."

Response:
Bullship. Frank wasn't able to do anything to Jeremy Horn until he gassed out either. And the fact is, Tito gassed out from the weaker Shamroid. Vitor will make Tito gas out even faster, and then hit him even harder, and Tito will therefore quit even more embarassingly than he did to Frank.

The armchair warrior said,
"Yes, just like the gold old days when Pit Dog spoke from little experience and a ton of bias, resulting in little substance in his posts."

Response:
Ah yes, I forgot I had to match wits with the world renowned Brian, who's biggest fight has been his daily efforts to rock himself back and forth until he can right himself from a prostrate position in his bed, so he can begin each new day.

XXOO

~ Pit Dog

[sabrutat]

Tito is going to beat Vitor.


Cheers

Stef

[sakattacked]

Tito over Vitor by decision.

[Kim Smith]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
LOL at Pit and Zhoo...just like the good old days, huh?

Great discussion!

[dan downard]

Actually,Randy had a game plan to fight on his feet.He studied the boxing side of Vitor and took everything Vitor threw and deflected it.Keeping his elbow up to destroy incoming punches and circling away from his power hand.He got him pinned into the fence and destroyed him.At that time Vitor was using his boxing skills alot.So that is (in my oppinion)what Randy was dealing with most.It didnt seem to me that Vitor wanted to go to the ground with Randy either.Remember the first few times we saw Vitor he punched.Then he came back and went to the ground to prove he had the ground skills.He even said so.But,that was quite awhile ago.As always we are just speculating on what will happen or what each fighter will do.Game plans change in the heat of a fight.
Trying to predict how a fighter will fight is mostly determend by who he is fighting.Since both can punch,and both can grapple.This is a hard one to call.But,it should be an great fight either way .

[Pit Dog]

Dan said,
"Actually,Randy had a game plan to fight on his feet.He studied the boxing side of Vitor and took everything Vitor threw and deflected it."

Response:
Hmmm, that's not how I remembered it. I think you are right at first, but Couture definitely came to take Vitor down. I think he was just more confident in himself and his boxing ability, that's all. In fact, in the pre-fight Randy said he had never seen anyone able to take Vitor down and wanted to know how he'd fare. Vitor in fact fared well, and got up, but was too roid-tired, and mentally whipped that he actually had to fight more than 18 seconds, and so folded.

Dan said,
"Keeping his elbow up to destroy incoming punches and circling away from his power hand.He got him pinned into the fence and destroyed him.At that time Vitor was using his boxing skills alot.So that is (in my oppinion)what Randy was dealing with most."

Response:
Nah, Couture was simply not intimidated, naturally stronger, and held Vitor's head down with one hand and uppercutted with the other. Vitor had blown through a buncha China-chinned nobody's and was too built-up, and basically just gave up and got an a$$whipping.

Dan said,
"It didnt seem to me that Vitor wanted to go to the ground with Randy either."

Response:
Actually, it was Vitor who tried the first takedown, and almost got it jamming Randy into the fence, and then Couture came free, boxed a bit, and went for the takedown himself. And got it.

Dan said,
"Remember the first few times we saw Vitor he punched.Then he came back and went to the ground to prove he had the ground skills.He even said so.But,that was quite awhile ago."

Response:
Vitor basically had his whole world jacked after that fight. He was under the illusion he was unbeatable, and pumped himself full of roids and tried to look even more menacing by lifting weights ... until Couture spanked him. He had an incredible identity crisis after that, and it is hard to say if he will ever fully recover, as he seems to fight different styles each time now. He definitely is more safety-conscious, and (thank God) dropped the roids and some weight. He may slowly be regaining confidence, but I am not sure he sees himself as a destroyer anymore. The more I think about it, the more he may come in with a safety-first tone. I would like to see him come in there to crack Tito's skull, personally. But he may just come to survive. Who knows?

Dan said,
"As always we are just speculating on what will happen or what each fighter will do.Game plans change in the heat of a fight."

Response:
Absolutely.

You said,
"Trying to predict how a fighter will fight is mostly determend by who he is fighting.Since both can punch,and both can grapple.This is a hard one to call.But,it should be an great fight either way ."

Response:
Again, absolutely.

[Zhoozhitsu]

Why is it a poor example? Vitor was unhurt and untouched on the ground, and got right back up from the sidemount. Surely if Couture couldn't hold him down, Tito couldn't either.

It’s a poor example because Couture wasn’t intent on taking Vitor to the ground and keeping him there. Had that been a big part of his strategy AND he’d failed, then your analogy would be valid.

You said this, and I quote: "Since Vitor will be on his back, the judges will give the fight to Tito." Or did I miss something? The fact is, everytime it "transitions back and forth" Tito is vulnerable to a KO.

Where in that quote did I say Vitor will be on his back the whole time? Vitor may or may not be on his back the whole fight.

Well, when did Tito lose to Frank? Answer: when he QUIT. Quitting is the ultimate sign of not being a true fighter. Since both are proven quitters, the question is, who will quit first.

Quitting at the right time is a sign of wisdom, something you lack my friend. These fighters are professionals and fighting is their career, unlike a couple of blood thirsty pit dogs in someone’s basement jumping at each other’s throats. You’ve consistently failed to make this distinction, and therein lies your lack of judgement.

Oh, I thought you said this. I consider Vitor to be the #1 contender, since he whipped Silva's a$$ and is a better athlete than Shamroid.

He is the #1 contender right now. What’s wrong w/ what I said? In Tito’s list of opponents, however, Vitor is probably the 3rd biggest threat.

Elite wrestler? What national title has Tito won? He is hardly an elite wrestler.

Nitpicking I see. Vitor has been quoted by elite wrestlers as having outstanding wrestling skills.

Bullship. Frank wasn't able to do anything to Jeremy Horn until he gassed out either. And the fact is, Tito gassed out from the weaker Shamroid. Vitor will make Tito gas out even faster, and then hit him even harder, and Tito will therefore quit even more embarassingly than he did to Frank.

Remember what you said here. Will revisit after the fight. This won’t be the first or last time you put your foot in your mouth.

[Pit Dog]

You said,
"It’s a poor example because Couture wasn’t intent on taking Vitor to the ground and keeping him there. Had that been a big part of his strategy AND he’d failed, then your analogy would be valid."

Response:
LOL, Randy not only tried, but DID, take Vitor down. Vitor bridged, got to his knees, and stood back up ... whereupon he met his fate ... but this has nothing to do with the fact Couture's goal was to get him to the ground.

You said,
"Where in that quote did I say Vitor will be on his back the whole time? Vitor may or may not be on his back the whole fight."

Response:
LOL, that was your implication, was it not? Now you say "may or may not" ... LOL well that covers it

You said,
"Quitting at the right time is a sign of wisdom, something you lack my friend. These fighters are professionals and fighting is their career, unlike a couple of blood thirsty pit dogs in someone’s basement jumping at each other’s throats. You’ve consistently failed to make this distinction, and therein lies your lack of judgement."

Response:
Oh brother. Jumping at each other's throats. LOLOL Anyway, quitting is a sign of lack of commitment, nothing more, nothing less.

You said,
"He is the #1 contender right now. What’s wrong w/ what I said? In Tito’s list of opponents, however, Vitor is probably the 3rd biggest threat."

Response:
OK, that's your opinion.

You said,
"Nitpicking I see. Vitor has been quoted by elite wrestlers as having outstanding wrestling skills."

Response:
Vitor or Tito? In either case, it's not nitpicking it's checking you back to reality.

You said,
"Remember what you said here. Will revisit after the fight. This won’t be the first or last time you put your foot in your mouth."

Response:
LMAO, how is my foot in my mouth win or lose? You take this sh!t too serious. I see how Tito is rougher and tougher than Vitor, but I also see how Vitor is faster and more athletic than Tito. And hits harder. The bottom line is they're both curs, LOL, so it's a matter of who quits first.

[Zhoozhitsu]

LOL, Randy not only tried, but DID, take Vitor down. Vitor bridged, got to his knees, and stood back up ... whereupon he met his fate ... but this has nothing to do with the fact Couture's goal was to get him to the ground.

Couture's strategy was to tie up Vitor and take him out w/ punches from the inside. Couture is an outstanding inside puncher. If you failed to see this, then there's no discussion.

LOL, that was your implication, was it not? Now you say "may or may not" ... LOL well that covers it

Do me a favor and don't read into things I say. You already have trouble comprehending my factual statements.

Oh brother. Jumping at each other's throats. LOLOL Anyway, quitting is a sign of lack of commitment, nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, quitting can be a sign of commitment. If by not quitting you risk a career ending injury, then you're as dumb as a pitbull.

I see how Tito is rougher and tougher than Vitor, but I also see how Vitor is faster and more athletic than Tito. And hits harder. The bottom line is they're both curs, LOL, so it's a matter of who quits first.

Everyone is either a cur or an idiot by your standards. Vitor has a nice set of attributes, and I would want to see him beat Tito 'cause I believe it would be good for the sport. Unfortunately, Tito is stronger, mentally tougher and a better athlete than Vitor. A win by Vitor would definitely be an upset.

[Pit Dog]

You said,
"Couture's strategy was to tie up Vitor and take him out w/ punches from the inside. Couture is an outstanding inside puncher. If you failed to see this, then there's no discussion."

Response:
LMAO, now Brian is an expert on punching. Have you ever laced on a pair of gloves Bri?
The truth is, yes, Randy tied him up and threw good uppercuts ... but this was *after* his strategy of taking Vitor down and contolling on the ground failed. In NHB, we call this roundedness. One thing fails, use another. Randy's groundwork failed, so he used his inside clinching & punching standup game, which succeeded. Even we can agree on this, no?

You said,
"Do me a favor and don't read into things I say. You already have trouble comprehending my factual statements. "

Response:
LOL, do *me* a favor and make yourself more clear. You said that Tito would be on top of Vitor, and that he would get the judges' nod as a result. If the judges' decisions would be continigent on something this important, then your (very obvious) implication was that this would be how the majority of the fight was fought. Please don't try to back up out of this now
And hell, it's even possible. I just argued improbable.

You said,
"Actually, quitting can be a sign of commitment. If by not quitting you risk a career ending injury, then you're as dumb as a pitbull."

Response:
LOL, perhaps. But once you quit, you lose that mystique and people will now be gunning for you and know there's a weakness to exploit.

You said,
"Everyone is either a cur or an idiot by your standards. Vitor has a nice set of attributes, and I would want to see him beat Tito 'cause I believe it would be good for the sport. Unfortunately, Tito is stronger, mentally tougher and a better athlete than Vitor. A win by Vitor would definitely be an upset."

Response:
Well, everyone can quit or be an idiot, can they not? You and me included. It's just to what degree these undesireable traits can be brought out that determines a fighter's worth - or a debator's. I would like to see Vitor win too. Hell, I agree Tito is stronger and mentally tougher too ... in fact I said this from the beginning (if you'd learn to read) ... but I DON'T think Tito's the better athlete or as fast as Vitor ... and there is not much disparity in their strength either. IMO, the real question and factor is going to boil down to mental toughness (ahem, gameness), and I think that Tito has more momentum in his favor in this regard right now. But I simply don't count Vitor out, and I would like to see his speed and power pierce right through Tito and get a KO, because I also think it would be good for the sport ... as well as fun to watch, LOL

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Zoo...

You think Tito is a better athelete than Vitor? Thats completely the opposite of what my opinion is on Vitor, who I always thought was one of the best atheletes in the sport. IMO Vitor can beat EVERYONE in the LHW division, but then again skill isn't always everything that decides a fight. While Silva has a lot of skill, this isn't a knock to his skill, but I think he wins his fights with more than skill. His staredown obviously worked against quite a few opponents. Sak, wins by being clever and doing things that confuse his opponents. Kevin Randelman uses steriods. So yes, skill and "look" aren't everything; I'm just saiyng Vitor SHOULD win bases on skill and athetleticsm. However, I can't just predict like this.