Will Vitor throw a flurry at Tito?

[Zhoozhitsu]

LMAO, now Brian is an expert on punching. Have you ever laced on a pair of gloves Bri?

More than you know.

The truth is, yes, Randy tied him up and threw good uppercuts ... but this was *after* his strategy of taking Vitor down and contolling on the ground failed. In NHB, we call this roundedness. One thing fails, use another. Randy's groundwork failed, so he used his inside clinching & punching standup game, which succeeded. Even we can agree on this, no?

No. As best as I can remember, Couture did NOT answer the opening bell w/ takedown attempts. He went for the tie up and inside punches. When he took Vitor down, it's because the opportunity was there. He didn't aggressively pursue it.

LOL, do *me* a favor and make yourself more clear. You said that Tito would be on top of Vitor, and that he would get the judges' nod as a result. If the judges' decisions would be continigent on something this important, then your (very obvious) implication was that this would be how the majority of the fight was fought. Please don't try to back up out of this now

You're absolutely correct that this is the position the majority of the fight would be fought. But it does not imply that the fight would't go standup occassionally.

LOL, perhaps. But once you quit, you lose that mystique and people will now be gunning for you and know there's a weakness to exploit.

People would be gunning for you whether you've quit in the past or not. A champion is one who doesn't let the quitting affect his game.

IMO, the real question and factor is going to boil down to mental toughness (ahem, gameness), and I think that Tito has

They're both skillful. Heck, Vitor is a better standup & submission fighter. These factors, however, become irrelevant in the face of Tito's strength combined w/ his positional superiority and mental toughness. I think the biggest difference is that Tito can and will put Vitor on his back w/out sustaining standup damage. Vitor can't put tito on his back, and in the unlikely event that he does (see Vitor x Herring), he will be reversed quickly, or Tito will escape.

more momentum in his favor in this regard right now. But I simply don't count Vitor out, and I would like to see his speed and power pierce right through Tito and get a KO, because I also think it would be good for the sport ... as well as fun to watch

Anyone w/ KO power and submission skills stands a chance. Vitor definitely stands a chance, but he is unlikely to win.

You and I disagree on which attributes or a set of attributes will contribute the most to the outcome.

[Zhoozhitsu]

Hooka wrote:

You think Tito is a better athelete than Vitor? Thats completely the opposite of what my opinion is on Vitor, who I always thought was one of the best atheletes in the sport.

Vitor is very athletic, but I believe Tito is more blessed in this area, and proven it.

IMO Vitor can beat EVERYONE in the LHW division, but then again skill isn't always everything that decides a fight.

Vitor was embarrassed by Sakuraba. What makes you think he can take anyone?

While Silva has a lot of skill, this isn't a knock to his skill, but I think he wins his fights with more than skill.

True. In this game, jack of all trades and master of none is the way to go. Sakuraba is no world class puncher or wrestler either, but he finds ways to win consistenly. NHB is a more complicated sport than boxing or Judo where you concentrate on one thing.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Considering Vitor's knee problems and then his broken hand early in the Sakuraba fight, I don't think it's fair to continue to judge him on that performance.

[Pit Dog]

You said,
"More than you know."

Response:
>Gulp< ohhhhh

You said,
"No. As best as I can remember, Couture did NOT answer the opening bell w/ takedown attempts. He went for the tie up and inside punches. When he took Vitor down, it's because the opportunity was there. He didn't aggressively pursue it."

Response:
Not so. Randy started out boxing, but hell everyone pretty much starts with their hands up. Vitor was the aggressor, threw one of his flurries, and then went to try to take Randy down. Randy defended, came off of the fence, and then got his own takedown. Unable to control from the bottom, Vitor got up, but was clearly tired. From there is where it went to a slugfest, Vitor's roids and size make him slow and lame, with Randy clinching his head and ripping him w/ uppercuts. That's how the fight happened.

You said,
"You're absolutely correct that this is the position the majority of the fight would be fought. But it does not imply that the fight would't go standup occassionally."

Response:
I am just not as sure as you Tito will be on top. He's slow as molasses next to Vitor and not much stronger, if at all.

You said,
"People would be gunning for you whether you've quit in the past or not. A champion is one who doesn't let the quitting affect his game."

Response:
People always gun for the champion, true. But if a champion has quit in the past, a contender will have more faith in himself at getting a win than if he is facing a champion who has never surrendered and never lost, but is known to prevail in all out wars.

You said,
"They're both skillful. Heck, Vitor is a better standup & submission fighter. These factors, however, become irrelevant in the face of Tito's strength combined w/ his positional superiority and mental toughness. I think the biggest difference is that Tito can and will put Vitor on his back w/out sustaining standup damage. Vitor can't put tito on his back, and in the unlikely event that he does (see Vitor x Herring), he will be reversed quickly, or Tito will escape."

Response:
Again, I don't see Tito being all that much stronger. He may well have better base, but again Vitor is no slouch in this department himself, and has faced and maintained positional superiority over bigger men than Tito has. The biggest difference is likely to be the "mental toughness" (that you conveniently refuse to call GAMENESS). This is where the true difference probably lies.

You said,
"You and I disagree on which attributes or a set of attributes will contribute the most to the outcome."

Response:
LOL, well, we agree on *one* ...... gameness ....... you just refuse to use the term, though you correctly identify the trait with your own chosen verbiage. But, yes, we disagree on the athleticism of the fighters. I don't think your giving Vitor's speed and strength enough credit, but I can see Tito likely has better linear strength. It's his mobility that I question.

But if he wins it will be because of better gameness. If he loses it will be because he was outspeeded, either beaten to the punch, or to the draw in his takedown attempts.

[Zhoozhitsu]

Not so. Randy started out boxing, but hell everyone pretty much starts with their hands up. Vitor was the aggressor, threw one of his flurries, and then went to try to take Randy down. Randy defended, came off of the fence, and then got his own takedown.

What??? Everyone starts w/ their hands up? Randy was tying Vitor up and fighting from the inside for some time before that takedown. If takedowns and fighting on the ground was an integral part of his strategy, he'd never have fought the way he did.

I am just not as sure as you Tito will be on top. He's slow as molasses next to Vitor and not much stronger, if at all.

And this is where you're wrong. Tito has been tossing around his opponents like rag dolls. He even KO'ed one w/ a takedown.

bigger men than Tito has. The biggest difference is likely to be the "mental toughness" (that you conveniently refuse to call GAMENESS). This is where the true difference probably lies.

The difference will not be gameness. The difference will be Tito's takedown & ground skills coupled w/ strength. This translates into keeping Vitor on his back, rendering him useless.

LOL, well, we agree on *one* ...... gameness ....... you just refuse to use the term, though you correctly identify the trait with your own chosen verbiage. But, yes, we disagree on the athleticism of the fighters. I don't think your giving Vitor's speed and strength enough credit, but I can see Tito likely has better linear strength. It's his mobility that I question.

I've seen all of Vitor's and Tito's fights. Vitor is vulnerable to takedowns, tie ups, quitting, tuning out etc. Tito's only vulnerability is his aggressiveness. If anything, he doesn't pace himself. He goes all out. But the scary thing is, he has superior stamina, and nowadays he's a much smarter fighter. I don't think he'll blow another fight like he did against Frank.

But if he wins it will be because of better gameness. If he loses it will be because he was outspeeded, either beaten to the punch, or to the draw in his takedown attempts.

If Tito wins by putting Vitor on his back, or taking the fight out of Vitor by putting him on his back and pummling him, then he has won because of the attributes I mentioned above.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Zhoo wrote:

Vitor was embarrassed by Sakuraba. What makes you think he can take anyone?

I think you missed what I was saying. Even though I think he SHOULD be able to take everyone, I still wouldnt' pick him against certain opponents. I think he's just a great athelete and one of the best in the sport.

And for you and Pit Dog, don't argue over this! This fight happened in what, 1996 or something? Its 2001 halfway to 2002 and Vitor is a much older, much better fighter. Back then people actually expected Vitor to beat him when today I wouldn't even consider the fight fair. I stopped reading your arguments because I don't know which side either one of you is on. The Vitor that fought Sak isn't the same Vitor that fought Herring. Hell, the Vitor that fought Couture wasn't even the same Vitor that fought Sak.

[Zhoozhitsu]

Originally posted by Hookah Smokin Caterpillar

And for you and Pit Dog, don't argue over this! This fight happened in what, 1996 or something? Its 2001 halfway to 2002 and Vitor is a much older, much better fighter.

Which fight? Vitor x Couture? Pit Dog made that the cornerstone of his argument; that if a more skillful and bigger wrestler can't hold Vitor down, how would Tito be able to do it. Once Pitty realizes the error in that argument, he will swiftly switch and take my side. Then again, if you tried convincing Pitty that the sky is blue (and let's not get into the technical side of that), he'd try to prove you otherwise, just so he won't be branded as a cur/quitter/whatever the heck it is he's so obsessed with.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

I see what you mean Zhoo, but...

IMO, if Couture wanted to, he could've held Vitor down for a while. Probably most of the fight. But just because Couture can do it it doesn't mean to me that Tito can. I don't think Tito will be able to hold him down much after the first round. I hope its like the Couture vs. Rizzo with Tito getting the first round by GnP, Vitor getting the second round by stand up, and then an all out war the last three rounds for the belt.

[Kim Smith]

Originally posted by Zhoozhitsu
Quitting at the right time is a sign of wisdom, something you lack my friend. These fighters are professionals and fighting is their career, unlike a couple of blood thirsty pit dogs in someone’s basement jumping at each other’s throats. You’ve consistently failed to make this distinction, and therein lies your lack of judgement.

LOL

[Zhoozhitsu]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
Considering Vitor's knee problems and then his broken hand early in the Sakuraba fight, I don't think it's fair to continue to judge him on that performance.

Miyagi San,

I'm not judging this fight based on Vitor's performance against Sakuraba. If Vitor never fought Sakuraba, I'd still see this fight the same way.

[Zhoozhitsu]

Originally posted by Hookah Smokin Caterpillar

IMO, if Couture wanted to, he could've held Vitor down for a while. Probably most of the fight.

Agreed.

But just because Couture can do it it doesn't mean to me that Tito can.

And I never said this was the case. The onlyl reason why Couture's name came up is because Pit Dog mentioned it.

I don't think Tito will be able to hold him down much after the first round.

I disagree. I think Tito has the skill and strength necessary to hold down opponents bigger and stronger than Vitor.