The Most Winning Martial Art in NHB?

[jeronimo]

All the statistics !!!

From 1993 to 1997, UFC were tournaments. We had to wait for Pride to re-invent it (at a world level I mean). But todays fighters are cross-trained : BJJ, wrestling and KB/MT. It became really difficult to compare styles looking at today's fighters.

That's why I did some research only on the 20 first UFC (more than 200 fighters, about 500 fights and tens of styles).
I will give you all the statistics to end the debate.

The following records are shown as : wins - losses - draws
And I give the % of the wins amongst all the fights (all styles included).

Wrestling 54-35-1 23,7 %
Shootfighting 33-18-2 14,5 %
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 32-21-1 14,0 %
Kickboxing 15-25 6,6 %
Pitfighting 12-10 5,3 %
Ruas Vale Tudo 8-1 3,5 %
Jiu-Jitsu 8-8 3,5 %
Karate 8-15 3,5 %
Sambo 7-4-1 3,1 %
Freestyle 6-2-2 2,6 %
Boxing 5-6 2,2 %
Moo Yea Do 4-3 1,8 %
Kuk Sool Wan 4-4 1,8 %
Trapfighting 4-4 1,8 %
Kung Fu 4-10 1,8 %
Ninjitsu 3-3 1,3 %
Muay Thai 3-5 1,3 %
Submission 3-5 1,3 %
Savate 2-1 0,9 %
White Tiger Kenpo 2-2 0,9 %
Extension Fighting 2-2 0,9 %
Judo 2-6 0,9 %
SAFTA 1-0 0,4 %
Shooto 1-0 0,4 %
Tung Kung Kalan 1-0 0,4 %
Pancrase 1-0 0,4 %
Jeet Kune Do 1-3 0,4 %
Luta Livre 1-4 0,4 %
Tae Kwon Do 1-8 0,4 %
Aïkido 0-1 0 %
Okinavan Karaté 0-1 0 %
Hapkido 0-1 0 %
Capoeira 0-1 0 %
Pentak Silat 0-1 0 %
Kapu Kuialua 0-1 0 %
Pakua-Chan 0-1 0 %
Jo Son Do 0-1 0 %
RIP / Freestyle 0-1 0 %
Integrated Fighting 0-2 0 %
Sumo 0-3 0 %
Wing Chun Kung Fu 0-3 0 %
Kenpo Karaté 0-4 0 %

Todays fighters are mixing kick-boxing / muay thaï for the strikes; wrestling for the take-downs; and brazilian jiu-jitsu for the submissions. Shootfighting was already an hybrid style developped by the japanese.
They are cross-trained.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Dang dude, that's a lot of research! But I doubt it will "end the debate"

Tung Kung Kalan is UNDEFEATED in the UFC baby! That's gonna be my new style!

Can someone tell me what the heck it is??

SZ

[Groin Grab]

It appears from the stats above that wrestling, shoot fighting and Brazilain Jui-Jitsu are all pretty even.

[jeronimo]

the core martial arts

Wrestling for take-down and brazilian jiu-jitsu for submission are the best grappling styles. For striking styles, no doubt : muay thaï (in Japan people say sometimes kick-boxing) is the best. The first to combine at least 2 of these 3 styles were japanese. Shooto, Pancrase, Shootboxing ... are different form of "shootfighting", that's mean hybrid-styles.

Efficiency is amongst these 3 : W, BJJ and KB/MT.
Ruas Vale Tudo is a mix of Luta Livre (wrestling) and Kick-Boxing/Muay Thaï.
Chute Boxe style is a mix of Muay Thaï with BJJ techniques.
Brazilian Top Team's style is based on BJJ but completed by techincs of wrestling and kick-boxing.
Ans so on.

If you had to remind only 3 styles :
for Grappling : wrestling and brazilian Jiu-jitsu
for Striking : Kick-boxing Muay Thaï

[jubaji]

Re: the core martial arts

Originally posted by jeronimo
[B]Wrestling for take-down and brazilian jiu-jitsu for submission are the best grappling styles. For striking styles, no doubt : muay thaï (in Japan people say sometimes kick-boxing) is the best. The first to combine at least 2 of these 3 styles were japanese.

]

I think Chinese san shou combined long before!

[Groin Grab]

I'm with you guys on wrestling (free style, collegic and greko roman) for take downs and the standing clench and Brazilian Jui-Jitsu for submission. But I think a good boxer that knows how to read kicks and has mabey cross trained a few months in it would knock out a muy tha fighter, becuase they are such bad boxers

[jeronimo]

Yes but, by adding kicks to his previous limited style (english boxing), he would become a kick-boxer ! So, the new kick-boxer would beat the kick-boxer.
Don't underestimate muay thaï boxers. Lots of people from Thaïland manage to win world titles in professionnal english boxing after a long carreer in their style.
I've been to Bangkok (Lumpini and Radjadamnoern stadiums). There, people are laughing when they are watching (english) boxing.
Different world !

A reply about SanShou
Sanshou / Sanda was created (first world championship) only in 1991.

[Groin Grab]

I think the most dangerous aspect of the muy tha fighter his their neck clench elbows and knees and low line kicks the only guys I've ever seen that can box in muy tha are the guys at the top and a lot of them spent a considerable time just boxing. Basically I think if you take a boxer and turn him into a kick boxer he'll be a lot better than a guy who is a strickly a kick boxer or a kicker that started kick boxing.

[jeronimo]

boxing sssss

I practiced differrent styles of boxing and kick-boxing. The slight differences in rules changed a lot the way you are fighting.

English boxing : you are allowed only to use your fist, above the belt. Distance : length of arms.

American boxing most known under the name of full-contact karate. Hands and feet above the belt. It could be seen as a mix of english boxing and the kick of karate or taekwondo. Only the most spectacular kicks are included, not the most efficient. Fist are most of the time more efficient.

French boxing, also known as savate. You are allowed to use hands and feet above and under the belt. And the boxers ("les tireurs" in french) are wearing shoes. Here is the first big change. You stop putting your weight on the leg in front because it become the first target. You put your weight on the back leg (opposite of english boxing).

Then, kick-boxing. This looks like full-contact but this time you are allowed to kixk under the belt. Compare to french boxing, you can use the shinbone, to kick and to block. At this point, the low-kick is the most destructive weapon. How can you punch if your bases are destroyed ? No more power.
For japanese, kick-boxing means "kind of muay thai", that means that knees are also allowed. Knee into the face when you hold the head of your opponent ...

The the super-star of all the striking styles : muay thaï. Hands, feet, shinbone, knees and ... elbows are allowed. You can also project your opponent to the ground (but not all the projection are allowed). In Thaïland, the judges are not interested in punch with hand. They count mainly knees. And then a elbow reach the target correctly, there is often cut that ends the fight (remember Tyson using this weapon against Tyrell Briggs).


I was only speaking about technics. For me no doubt : because the range of technics is much more wide, muay thaï can not be compare to english boxing.
But, on the other point, when you see that a fight between Lewis and Tyson will bring them 20 millions $ each, and that the winner of the K1 Grand Prix won "only" 500,000 $, no doubt also : the best professionnal fighters (in terms of athletical abilities) are in english boxing.

So, the number one striker would be an athletes from english boxing trained by the best muay thaï professors. If money increase in kick-boxing, the level of competition will also. And it starts to become the case in Japan. Pride FC and K1 GP are showing the way.

To be frank, I don't like english boxing's parasites. 17 weight divisions, at least 4 world federations (recognised in my country : WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO) and some promoters who are saying the rules ... To many decisions that are questionnable ... I really prefer the principle of a tournament like the old Ultimate FC, the K1 or the next Pride Grand Prix 2002 !!!

[Groin Grab]

That's what I'm talking about an excellent boxer trained by the best muy tha guys is going to dominate. Of stand up striking muy tha's biggest weakness is boxing I know this because a buddy of mine who is only an amature boxer a pretty good one though fought a boxing only match against this guy who was suppose to be a Muy Tha Champion in Australia. The Australian guy got worked it look like a Roy Jones JR fight or something. Of course if match would have been muy tha rules could the out come have been differnt yes but the point is he was a pathetic boxer. I also had a boxing coach who took karate as a kid and learned all the karate style kicks and stuff then he went into boxing for fifteen years and even had a couple pro-fights before he gave up the sport. One day this kick boxer from Europe came to his boxing club in San Diego and challange him. So he fought him in the ring I saw the tape. The kick boxer in the first round landed a few good kicks to the boxers head, early in the second round he was still throughing good kicks to my coaches legs and head then half way through the second round my couch got him up against the ropes and knocked him out. He told me he didn't have too much trouble dealing with the kicks because he had learned to read them years ago when he took karate as a kid. I think often boxing can be highly underestamated.

[jeronimo]

tactic

Basically :
In a free fight, a jiu-jitsuka will clinch as soon as possible then submit the opponent on the ground.
On a kick-boxing fight, the first thing to do is low-kick. And when the opponent cnnot move or answer because his leg are "broken", just finish him with knees, elbows or hands.

Trying to land a high-kick to the head is like searching for the lucky punch in boxing. The "champion" from Australia who fougt against the old karateka fought as an amateur !

Anyway, punches with hands to the head are precise an so efficent. You're right. And a boxer fighting a kick-boxer under strictly boxing rules will win, I agree.

But it is fun to try everything !

[Groin Grab]

No, No, the Australian guy said he was a Muy Tha Champion in Australia he said that in Australia after you fight and win three times you become a professional. He fought a guy who was only a boxer and had done a few amature fights. There match was strictly boxing rules.

The other guy from Europe was more of a kick boxer than a muy tha guy, he threw a lot more kicks from different angles he did a lot of double kicking and axe kicks and stuff. He supposedly had some European belt for kick boxing, he fought a totally differnt guy who had boxed professionally and did karate only as a little kid.

Sorry for the confusion.

[jeronimo]

I have to admit that, because english is not my language, I might misunderstand few things.
Anyway, it is very onteresting to exchange opinions as long as people staid respectful.
Thanks for writing on this forum.

Have you seen the poll : brazilian jiu-jitsu and wrestling far ahead.
So who will win the Pride Grand Prix 2002 : a jiu-jitsuka or a wrestler ?
For heavyweight it would mean that the winner would be amongst Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira, Mario "Zen Machine" Sperry, Mark Coleman and Randy Couture.
For "middleweight", it would mean amongst : Vitor Belfort, Ricardo Arona and Dan "Hollywood" Henderson.

Your opinion ?

[Groin Grab]

That's some pretty tought competition any one of those guys is capable of winning. I think I'm going to go with Couture vs Sperry, I think Couture may have better take downs and boxing skills than Sperry how ever Sperry has better submissions and is all around a really smart fighter.
I think it will be Henderson vs Belfort for the other division I think Henderson has better take down and standing clench skills than Vitor but Belfort has better boxing and submission skills than Henderson. Those will be some good fights.

[jeronimo]

conclusion of the poll

Amongst all the striking styles selected by Mr Sambo, none seems to be convincing enough to be able to win a major tournament in MMA. Muay thaï and Karate are just one vote above Taekwondo which receive ... none.

Amongst the 3 grappling styles selected (wrestling, brazilian jiu-jitsu and sambo), no doubt : sambo is far behind (but still capable to created a surprise, sometimes).

"Vale tudo" is also proposed as a style but these words mean "all is allowed" or "no rules". I suppose Mr Sambo meaned "hybrid styles" as shootfighting, pitfighting, ruas vale tudo and so on (which are mix of kick-boxing/muay thaï, wrestling and brazilian jiu-jitsu)

The votes are close to the reality. In MMA (free fighting or submission championship), wrestling and brazilian jiu-jitsu are sharing the titles.
The 10 most efficient styles are listed under with their record during the 20 first UFC and the % of the overall victories.

Wrestling 54 W-35 L-1 D : 23,7 %
Shootfighting 33 W-18 L-2 D : 14,5 %
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 32 W-21 L-1 D : 14,0 %
Kickboxing 15 W-25 L : 6,6 %
Pitfighting 12 W-10 L : 5,3 %
Ruas Vale Tudo 8 W-1 L : 3,5 %
Jiu-Jitsu 8 W-8 L : 3,5 %
Karate 8 W-15 L : 3,5 %
Sambo 7 W-4 L-1 D : 3,1 %
Freestyle 6 W-2 L-2 D : 2,6 %

MMA History has shown the surprising arrival and revolution of the brazilian jiu-jitsu in the world of fighting in 1993 and 1994. Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie (in USA) and Rickson Gracie (in Japan) made a huge advertising for their style.
But from 1995 to 2000, while the jiu-jitsu master were more involved in opening training school and organising seminars, the wrestlers becamed the champions of MMA. Dan Severn, Don Frye, Mark Coleman, Randy Couture and Mark Kerr were the best during this era with a culmining win of Coleman during the first Pride Grand Prix 2000.
But 2001 was the rebirth of brazilian jiu-jitsu. No Gracie to realise that (they are all beaten by a single japanese shootfighter : Sakuraba) : Ricardo Arona (in submission championships) and Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira (in NHB).

I'm very impatient to see if jiu-jitsu will confirm this second era of domination (with Nogueira, Sperry, Belfort or Arona) or if wrestling will react (with Couture, Coleman or Henderson).

According to the poll ... jiu-jitsu should continue this new leading period. Technic (jiu-jitsuka physicals are average in weight) better than strengh (wrestlers are often huge) ? Why not ? It is sane to hear that !