wrestling vs brazilian jiu-jitsu

[jeronimo]

The year 2001 shown to us 2 superfights :

the Pride Grand 2000 Prix winner Mark "The Hammer" Coleman (wrestling) against the KOK 2000 winner Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira (brazilian jiu-jitsu);

and the absolute Abu Dhabi champion 1998 Mario "The Zen Machine" Sperry (brazilian jiu-jitsu) against the absolute Abu Dhabi champion 2000 Mark "The Titan" Kerr (wrestling).

Results : wrestling : 1 ; brazilian jiu-jitsu : 1.

What would happen if the third fight do determine the most efficient style was between the best wrestler in the world against the best jiu-jitsuka in the world :
Rulon Gardner (greco-roman wrestling) against Fernando "Margarida" Pontes (gracie jiu-jitsu) ?

Who would win ???


L'année 2001 nous a offert deux super-combats en arts martiaux mixtes :

- Mario Sperry (jiu-jitsu) contre Mark Kerr (lutte)
- et Mark Coleman (lutte) contre Rodrigo Nogueira (jiu-jitsu).

Résultats : 1 victoire pour la lutte (Kerr) et 1 victoire pour le jiu-jitsu (Nogueira).

Que se passerait-il si, pour déterminer la supériorité de l'un de ces deux styles, on opposait le meilleur lutteur du monde (Rulon Gardner) au meilleur jiu-jitsuka (Fernando "Margarida" Pontes) ?

Qui l'emporterait à votre avis ???

[Szczepankiewicz]

Whomsoever shall be victorious is pretty much irrelevant to which style is more efficient.

But it's a nice promotional. What are you selling? Tickets?

I'd buy that for a dollar!

SZ

[jeronimo]

Irrelevant ? Could you precise your mind, please.

Or may be you mean that in a wrestling competition, Gardner would win; in a BJJ competition, Pontes would win; ... but what do you think could happen in a "mixed rules" fight, let's say a fight like under Abu Dhabi submission championship's rules ?

Other's opinion are interesting if they argue positively.
Toujours intéressant d'avoir l'avis des autres pour peu qu'ils argumentent constructivement.

You would buy it for a $. How much is it in € ?

[crazyjoe380]

wrestling is good..


but bjj is better..

before wrestlers didnt know what to expect..

wrestlers give up ther arms too much and end up getting triangle choked

severn vs gracie

rodrigo vs colman

http://www.mmafighting.com/videoclips/p16colemannoguiera.ram

wrestlers are getting retrained or also learning bjj

its not about what style its all mixed martial arts

my teacher teaches bjj and roman greco

[Szczepankiewicz]

"What would happen if the third fight do determine the most efficient style was between the best wrestler in the world against the best jiu-jitsuka in the world..."


My point is that one fight will not determine "the most efficient style in the world" no matter who fights in the fight.


I hope this is enough of a positive argument for you.

About seven and one half I believe is the current exchange rate.

[soho]

You said it perfectly CrazyJoe. In the old days wrestlers would lose to BJJ guys. Now days there is no such thing as "just a wrestler" in mma. Wrestlers are learning BJJ submissions. BJJ guys are learning wrestling style takedowns. It's all part of the same game not one Vs. the other.

[CityBum]

Well someone forgot to tell Coleman that..!!??,,....""""""

[Angel_of_Pain]

Ok one fight was mma/nhb and the other was submission grappling, plus how can we judge wich style is better in 2 or 3 fight? Style is important but the most important is the person, one really weak bjj fighter could lose to a good karate fighter! lol

But if you mean style vs. style well the best match I think was Royce Gracie vs. Dan Severn both fighter in there prime, whit Royce winning by triangle choke.

[Shimora]

A true master of Ninjutsu will defeat a mere wrestler every time.
Look at Steve Jennum vs Harold Howard.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Whatever happened to ol' Jennum anyway? If a true master of Ninjitsu can defeat a wrestler everytime, and BJJ guys routinely trounce Ninjitsu masters (only in the ring of course) then, by substitution, BJJ guys will totally dominate wrestlers.

All B can defeat C
All A can defeat B
Therefore, All A can defeat C.

Substitute:
A= BJJ
B= Ninjitsu Master
C= Wrestler

Classic case of a categorical syllogism (I believe), a subset of deductive reasoning.

HOWEVER, is it valid? Let's check

For it to be valid we need to test that the premises support the conclusion.

In this case given that premise 1 (Ninjitsu vs. Wrestling) could be true. And premise 2 (BJJ vs. Ninjitsu) could also be true. And both statements appear to support the conclusion.

If the premises support the conclusion, then the argument is valid. Whether the premises are true or not.

So we now have a valid argument that BJJ is dominant over wrestling.

Let's attempt to determine whether the argument is Sound.

For the argument to be sound, it must first be valid (i.e. the premise(s) support(s) the conclusion.) This is true. However, in addition to this, the premise(s) AND the conclusion must be true.

We can pretty much agree that the second premise (BJJ vs. Ninjitsu) has been proven in numerous MMA competitions. However, the empirical data that supports premise 1 is suspect for two reasons:

1)There have been very few competitions between wrestlers and ninja masters in mma, so our supporting data is inconclusive. And since we don't operate on the fallacy that a statement is "true until proven false", we must assume that this statement is false (until later proven to be true) .

And 2), since it's generally agreed that ninjas are full of shit (especially Shimora ) then we arrive at the conclusion that premise one is suspect at best.

Without (demonstratebly) true premises we cannot have a Sound argument.

So although our argument is valid, it is not sound. Therefore it may, or may not be true.

I guess more research is needed.

SZ

[jeronimo]

Steve Jennum fabulous record

Win Harold Howard Submission (Strikes) UFC 3 - The American Dream 9-9-1994

Win Melton Bowen Submission (Armlock) UFC 4 - Revenge of the Warriors 12-16-1994

Loss David Abbott Submission (Neck Crank) UU 95 - Ultimate Utlimate 1995 12-16-1995

Loss Marco Ruas Submission (Punches) WVC 1 - World Vale Tudo Championship 1 8-14-1996

Loss Jason Godsey N/A EC 4 - Extreme Challenge 4 2-22-1997

[Szczepankiewicz]

What were the styles of Jennum's opponents?

Harold Howard was karate/jiu jitsu.
Melton Bowen was a Boxer.
David Abbot is a pit fighter.
Marco Ruas is Ruas Vale Tudo
Jason Godsey is unlisted for style.

(source is Sherdog.com)

So Jennum beat how many wrestlers?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hmmmm

I guess Steve Jennum didn't beat any wrestlers then?

[MercuryTurrent]

forgive my idiocy guys, but what does the style of ninjitsu look like?

[Flash]

Re: Hmmmm

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I guess Steve Jennum didn't beat any wrestlers then?

Hmmm...doesn't Ninjutsu involve hiding in the shadows and sticking a sword in a guy's back when he isn't looking?

Might not go over too well if you do that in the ring...but who knows? The crowd might like it although the police might take a dim view of such an event.