Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Self Defense

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by soho
    I'm answering for myself...not anyone else
    But your not training for self defense. Your trianing for sport. What makes you think you can even answer that question for yourself, since it isn't what you study for.
    PS. Here's an idea that makes perfect sense with your logic skills. Study art appreciation, and then go critique small business plans for Enron

    Comment


    • #32
      I'm not training because I'm worried about a street fight but because I want to be the best I can be at my chosen "sport" of fighting.

      Lets face facts, the people whom I would not want to mess with are all people who train for "sport"...The guys who are on the matts rolling 6 days a week. The guys who bang 6-8 rounds per week in the ring, the guys who are pummeling each day. Those are the ones who will drop a guy in a bar with one good right hand, one good knee, or one good kick to the nuts...who will throw a guy on his head from the clinch... Whom an attacker won't be able to take down or land a good shot on. These are the guys who will be smart enough to get out of there if they are in a no win situation.

      Now lets look at the other side, people who train for street fighting. The people who don't get in and roll, Who don't train athletically because "that’s for sport"...The people who fill up the kali knife flow drills class, the trapping class, and the silat classes...The people who hit the focus mitts plenty but spar like once a month. The people who every time you spar with them after they've taken their beat down say things like "well if you hit me with a closed fist like that in real life you would break your hand"...or "I would have bitten or poked you in the eye." The people who half the time don't even work up a sweat while training because let’s face it those flow drills are not that hard a workout.
      It is these out of shape want to be tough guys who are always talking about streetfighting and real world self defense while they are doing their jurus and working their high outside reference point, but in truth could not handle themselves against even a mildly motivated attacker.

      Is BJJ for the street? …I would not want to go to the ground in a real altercation, and if I were taken to the ground I would want to get back up just for mobility’s sake. However one thing I have noticed is that most of the type of people "combat athletes" who I would not want to mess with eventually seek out BJJ as part of their training…while most of the street fighting silat pansies stay away from it. That’s because the combat athletes are interested in personal growth in the sport of fighting and understand what it takes to achieve it. While the nonsense street fighting martial artist tries bjj once doesn’t like getting choked out 10 time in a row and never goes back, and their excuse is "because that’s just for sport."

      I think bjj is a good litmus test…If a guy is always talking about "street fighting" but you never see him rolling when bjj is available to him, then 9 times out of 10 he’s not someone you or a potential attacker would have to worry much about. His lack of realistic training on the ground most likely mirrors his lack of realistic training on his feet.
      Last edited by soho; 04-16-2002, 07:31 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Would you believe I train for self-defense as a goal, but train BJJ, boxing, and judo as the biggest parts of my arsenal?

        It's disturbing to me to think that people don't think athleticism is important for "street fights". The self-defense world has a lot of very realistic people in it who work on practical combat strategies too. People who put a lot of effort into wrestling, boxing, BJJ, etc. I know I am not going to be a UFC fighter......but I also know that to be realistic in a self-defense situation, you have to know how to punch, wrestle, and be athletic.
        How could you be a "streetfighter" and never fight? Never spar with no rules? Never hit and be hit with full contact? How can you be a "streetfighter" if you aren't an athelete??

        Ryu

        Comment


        • #34
          Sing it Ryu!!!

          Comment


          • #35
            Soho, I am sorry to have to resort to this, but you are a moron who has never seen anyone train for a real street altercation. All of your posts are hearsay and rumor. Either that or you have spent too much time watching Tae Kwon Do. You are saying that people who train for the street don't roll, spar, or workout. You are a moron. The only difference in training for a sport or training to fight in the street are what techniues you allow. When you roll, you wear a cup and get your nuts hit. That's realistic! You get nibbled on. When you spar there is only one rule. When someone says stop, you stop. Other than that...go. When I spar, I use everything in the room. Fan cords, chairs, whatever. I am probably well more athletic than you'll ever be! And I spar three days a week and roll twice a week. As does every other person here that is training to fight in the streets. Everyone here runs sprints and lifts weights. We pound the Thai Pads, and will throw you down. We don't whine like you are implying. If someone throws a haymaker, and I get caught with it...THROW IT AGAIN! If you choke me out...guess what, it worked! If I could not prevent it...it worked! *&^% I would have bit you if this was a street fight, because I would have bit you in sparring. You have never seen real street fight training! Jurus and Flow Drills are the tip of an iceberg that you are too ignorant and too much of a BJJ b*tch to see.

            Comment


            • #36
              While you were busy calling me a moron you basically made my point for me.

              "You are a moron. The only difference in training for a sport or training to fight in the street are what techniques you allow."

              Exactly in another words there isn't all that much difference between realistic "street" and "sport" training. Of course we want to spend time working foul tactics/multiple opponents/weapons and the like but the really important part of the training is simply the sparring/drilling time. You just went back on your constant objection that training for the street is so much different than training for sport.

              As for your 5 day workout of sparring and rolling. Well good for you. Though I stand by the bjj litmus test I mentioned. Now days people who badmouth BJJ as being just for sport usualy don't train that realistic on their feet ether. If you roll twice a week that’s basically doing bjj. If your always putting in the bites and hits then it's just bjj with bites and hits

              If you still don't see what I'm saying. If you still think that training for sport and training for the streets are two completely different things then you’re the moron.
              Last edited by soho; 04-17-2002, 03:37 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                What's up everyone,

                This seems like a heated issue, I like it. Pentjacksilat if you train as you say you do then it sounds like you have the right idea. Training athletically equals training realisticaly, just throw in dirty tactics every once in a while. I'm curious though why you have this strong dislike with jits, I don't think you can honestly and objectively say that it's not an effective art, why the resentment. And lastly it seems as if you are proficient in silat so I was wondering what jurus have to do with fighting, I briefly tried them out and I felt I might as well be doing kata's. I do not see the connection. I'm just being frank so don't take it as aggression. Take care.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I don't hate jits. I just hate jits that think their art is god. I personally have a lot of respect for the art and think it is a very efficient one. But it is way too incomplete. For it's essence, it is the best. For the close quarter game that is, it is the most developed and efficient art. But it leaves too many openings. Knee on belly is just asking to get your nuts grabbed. Guard is asking that too. Triangle me and I'll bite your thigh. Go 69 and I'm having a meatball sub for lunch. The ability to spar it non-stop every hour of the day without getting hurt is good. But people who think they can only study it and that is all they need to study are too complacent. As a matter of fact, I am just as spiteful to anyone who goes around parading that their art is god and all others are not even in the same league. What people don't understand is that the reason BJJ is so good is that you can spar it all day without getting hurt. If someone sparred anything that long, they would be worlds ahead of other people that didn't do that. BJJ is good, but I can't stand people who think in that my dragon style will defeat your tiger style bullcrap. Especially when they don't train it realistically. Don't get me wrong, there are things in BJJ that can be used realistically. There are a lot of things. But nobody knows what they are because they don't train it that way. Do a keylock to someone on the street. What axactly will that do. Make them scream in pain. But you have to let go sometime. And when you do they'll be really pissed off. Arm bar someone, but do it to break their arm. Do it fast and furious and move on. Don't give their freinds a chance to see they should help their freind. And let me ask you this. After you break their arm, what is the most efficient way to get up? I know they know every little nuance of how to get into it, but how do you get away afterward. What is the most efficient way to get back to your feet when you Kimura someone and tear their shoulder and now have to deal with their friend? What is the best way to actually tear the shoulder and not just put it to the point of making them tap. Because there is a difference. To tear it you have to get it a lot farther than if you just wanted them to tap. How do you tear out someones ankle with a heel hook, and do you have the knowledge to be able to tear it out consistently when you want to? Soho has never once thought about this stuff, I can almost guarantee! BJJ is good, if you consider the street aspect of it. But too many people are concerned with submitting. The choke is good. Choke someone and that's it. But it takes someone a minimum of 10 seconds to pass out. How do you hold on to the choke long enough to make him pass out and fend off his freind at the same time? Where should you position yourself. On the bottom? Should you stand up? What? This is why I don't like BJJ junkies who have shown me they never really gave any thought to realistic aspects, but are self-proclaimed masters on how BJJ is realistic. If you study it and say "Hey, it's fun. A lot funner than kickboxing. Ya, it has it's flaws, but I like it." I wouldn't be annoyed. I love grappling. I think that anyone training to defend themselves who doesn't study it is a moron. JKD has it's flaws, Silat has it's flaws, everything has it's flaws, I know that! But people who say it's the ultimate street art or that it has no flaws, and show me they have no idea what it means to fight on the street...annoy me.
                  Last edited by PentjackSilat; 04-18-2002, 02:41 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    As for the Jurus, I don't like them either. But they are not for fighting. They are to coordinate the limbs in a specific motion that can be translated, updated, or improvised in combat. In martial arts that come from that region they usually try to coordinate the people before thet teach them to fight. Jurus are in no way meant to used to fight with. They are like when you first learn to ride a bicycle. First you need to coordinate your legs with your balance. That is why you start with training wheels. Once you learn the coordination, you throw away the training wheels. Same with Jurus. Once you have the coordination, you throw them away. In my opinion, Jurus and Katas alike only have place in fight training to coordinate you. I guess you can think of Jurus like shadowboxing. If you are told to shadowbox Jab Cross Hook, it is to coordinate you. But striking and grappling are a little different because their are so many moves in manipulation arts that certain motions carry over into different techniques. It's like Shrimping in BJJ. How many different things can that motion be used for? A lot. Jurus are just general motions like shrimping stringed together. It is all meant to coordinate you. Kinda like if you had a BJJ Shrimp, to double shrimp, to bridge, etc. string of motions that you did. The bridging can be an escape, or a crank on an armbar, or whatever...and the shrimp can be used for a dozens things itself. But you don't lay their shrimping for an hour saying "I'm learning a fight technique." Because your not learning anything but a motion that can be inserted into combat drills later.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hey PJ,

                      Ever heard the term white space?


                      Like when you write 100 lines of text, it's easier to see the wisdom in your message if you can actually read it without going blind.

                      Thanks,

                      SZ

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I started training Muay Thai primarily for self-defense. I figured that would be best for someone like myself with limited training available while at college. Unfortunately that was many moons ago, far too many moons ago. Right now, I'm just waiting to have the time and money available for more training. Gotta keep the house and food in the fridge first, everything else falls in somewhere after that.

                        Very good argument, Silat. Unfortunately the weenies that spout off about how great whatever it is they train in just plain don't get it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Sorry man.

                          I'll remember that for next time.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Great. You have a lot of good comments. Makes it easier to read when you break them up. And I don't wanna miss anything.


                            SZ

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              *raises hand* i dont got a problem with it. as long as i got time, i'll read it all, no matter how big.



                              spacing does help though.




                              but its not very helpful right now.


                              see?

                              anyways, i think self defense, at least what was said, it quite valid. lets keep in mind though, that people wont win every fight, even you (yes, you)! i'd say this thread ties in what was said in "the ground is the last place you want to be in a real fight!" but with a twist; in a self defense situation you are losing, last chance could be going to the ground (unless it is a multi-man rumble on yo ass, that is ).
                              lets all remember our pressure points though, as well as hitting the neck, ect. if your in trouble on the street, practicing self defense techniques -until they become automatic- can be just as important as going in the ring. now, you dont see kickboxers throwing knife edges to the throaght, do ya?
                              sure, some martial-sports do incorporate that, but if your training is solely for sport, you're going to be missing the instinctive (and nonsportlike) techniques which'll save your ass alot faster then that vale tudo you've been doing on the matt, or those punches in the ring.

                              guess the key here, guys, is to balence martial art and martial "sport".

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Self Defence

                                I'm pretty new to the board, and I'm a bit disappointed to see some of this childish bickering in this thread. Anyway, I train primarily for self defence. My art is Bujutsu, which has been designed by my Sensei and is a synthesis of Kick Boxing, Wrestling, Judo and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

                                I also train with weights, using the "Hardgainer" philosophy, and I do bag work consisting of training a few very basic but very effective techniques and combinations to throw prior to the fight hitting the ground.

                                All this "ground fighting doesn't work on the streets" is a little silly. A massive percentage of real fights end up on the ground, whether you want to be there or not. I just like to hit the person hard before we get there.

                                I know you could probably avoid it by poking someones eyes out or something equally as thuggish, but then you'd end up in a cell for a few years. Doing something that puts you in dager of losing years of your life in prison is hardly self defence.....Being able to control the amount of force you use is much more skilfull.

                                PS - Did I mention that I have fought on the streets dozens of times? No? Well, I have fought on the streets dozens of times.

                                PPS - What happened to the mutual respect between different martial arts and martial artists? One or two of you need educating as to how you the arts can develop you as a person. Even my 9 year old Judoka son doesn't talk like some of you.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X