Aikido

[Brokenmace]

The fact is that it's irrelevant how effective Aikido is for disarming sword-wielding opponents cause the fact is THERE ARE NO SWORD-WIELDING OPPONENTS!

Like I said . . .

However, it is supposition that no one trains against resisting partners. I do this all the time. My brother, who trained in Aikido, also did this all the time. Call it freakish, rare, an anomoly, whatever. It happened. He only studied for two years, though. His dojo was in Owensburgh, KT.

That there are no sword-wielding adversaries is of little concern. Sufficiently intelligent students can adapt many tactics and techniques from many different martial arts and make them work in modern situations.

No one wants to go up against a gun without a gun. But if those are the cards you are dealt . . .

And I have to keep coming back to the point of the thread. It wasn't to prove or disprove Aikido's efficiency or value in the modern world. We were just asked if it could complement BJJ. Maybe. It would take two arms, two legs, and an open mind. I know of a Shotokan dojo near me that already mixes in Aikido, and they've been very effective against kickboxers (not point sparring, full contact).

For some reason, they seem to produce effective fighters within 2-4 years, depending on personal commitment. I've sparred with some of them to train for patron boxing bouts, and they aren't a joke.

As for why to train Aikido? Maybe, just maybe, its fun.

If all I wanted was self-defense, I'd get a concealed firearms permit and buy a gun. Proof against rabid Karatekas everywhere!

Respect.

[Lightning&Earth]

aikido is NOT a useless art

and was not only for disarming an attacker. THINK for a moment guys. what is a sword if not an enhanced version of a stick. the techniques were designed to disarm an attacker weilding a weapon, be it sword stick ,,bat,,knife etc. in essence though Aikido is designed to take out an opponent without seriously hurting the opponent.
Aikido is about timing which is prevalent in ALL martial arts. aikido just focuses on it more than say bjj which timing at first is utilized and then it is muscleing your way into the mount or the choke or whatever.
i am so tired of the MMA and BJJ guys trashing other forms of martial arts. let me let you in on a secret BJJ and MMA guys.
when you try to pull some grapple stunt out on the street you are going to either get shot get stabbed or in some cases,,jumped by about 5 other guys. you seriously THINK that your mounting skills are going to save you then?
BJJ and MMA'a are effective in certain circles,,,,but when you look at the broad spectrum of possibilities in a combat situation you are going to find that what you do focuses on the one opponent. not several,,,for if you DO train to combat several are you going to the ground? NO. you are standing up and brawling like the rest of us muy thai ,,aikido,,,kung fu,,,hsing i ,,,,hung gar,,etc. practitioners.
so get off your high horse and start respecting these arts from which YOUR art was created from.


Lightning and Earth

[Roland]

Re: aikido is NOT a useless art

Originally posted by Lightning&Earth
let me let you in on a secret BJJ and MMA guys.
when you try to pull some grapple stunt out on the street you are going to either get shot get stabbed or in some cases,,jumped by about 5 other guys. you seriously THINK that your mounting skills are going to save you then?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think an Aikido stylist would stand much of a chance, either, in this situation. At least the BJJ and MMA guys would probably be in good enough shape to outrun the five assailants.

[Lightning&Earth]

Roland

an Aikido Stylist wouldnt attract that kind of violence and bullshit to him in the first place. Who is to say who can run faster? probably the person who can actaully run fast.

Lightining and Earth

[Ice Phoenix]

L&E, you say you're sick of BJJ & MMA guys bashing traditional martial arts, but then you come on here and bash BJJ & MMA with an even dumber argument than that of most TMA bashers?

Seriously, no one ever wins an argument like this on the internet so don't even try, but in the words of Rorny Gracie, even if you do, "You're still a retard!"

If you're facing more than one opponent it is FAR MORE likely you will end up on the ground whether you like it or not, as they will bombard you and knock you over while you lie on your back wondering where your third hand went when you needed it to get them all in wrist locks!

I will say if you think using techniques & skills in BJJ are about "muscling your way into the mount or choke or whatever" then you obviously don't know much about BJJ, cause anyone who does is lacking in skill!

Please don't start flaming me for what I have said cause I'm only attempting to be mildly humorous, not insulting!

BTW, I agree with what Roland said! You will generally find BJJ & MMA fighters/practitioners have a high fitness level, unlike Aikidokas who are often fat or otherwise unfit due to a higher priority on theory/tradition & spirituality!

[Lightning&Earth]

im not trashing bjj or mma

not at all. but your broad generalzations of aikidokas make you look like more of a retard than i . and thats exactly what BJJ and MMA does. it goes for the opeining and muscles thier way in to the position. if you are not muscleing your way in what then are you doing? asking them nicely to let you choke or mount them? or using harsh language? please guy,,reread my post above. i dont discount what bjj or mma is as an effective martial art. but your organizations are notorious for talkin shit to other styles and you wonder why you guys get no respect from us traditionalists. believe me respect from us is NOT gained by how well you can kick ass in the ring but by how well you carry yourself with your art and the manner in which you are taught to respect other arts. this male machismo shit is not very becomeing of an organization that prides itself on its "honor".
this thread has become more or less a bash aikido thread. and i am coming to its defense.

Lightning and Earth

[Brokenmace]

I never bashed Aikido. My whole point was that Aikido, or any other martial art, can be integrated into any other. Everyone has two arms, two legs, and hopefully a brain (although I'm beginning to wonder about the last bit )

Anyway, all I said was that Aikido takes a long time to get good at. Whether this is good or bad depends on the practitioner's goal.

And you are right about BJJ and the street. Anyone (BJJ stylist or otherwise), who commits to a clinch by choice could easily find himself skewered by a pocket knife. And that's no joke, as it only takes about 1.5 inches to pierce a lung, which is the stab wound most likely to cause a fatality.

And you will probably get jumped by more than one person, because anyone who looks like they know what they are doing on the ground might engender rage from bystanders, not to mention friends. What will you do when the bottles start flying?

Seriously, this isn't about "my art's better than yours" I'm just pointing out that myopia in the martial arts is bad. You have to take a wider view. There are many ranges in fighting, and despite what some BJJ purests believe, they aren't all always subbordinate to grappling range.

As far as being less physically fit? A fat man with a gun is more dangerous than a fit man with a fist.

A time and place for everything, people.

[Lightning&Earth]

well put forth Broken Mace

Never implied that YOU are bashing aikido. your points are very valid.

Lightning and Earth

[Roland]

Re: Lightning and Fire

Originally posted by Lightning&Earth
an Aikido Stylist wouldnt attract that kind of violence and bullshit to him in the first place. Who is to say who can run faster? probably the person who can actaully run fast.

Lightining and Earth

LOL - you're the one who brought up the entire "jumped by five guys" argument. Now you're saying that it doesn't apply to Aikidokas because they "wouldn't attract that kind of violence and bullshit" but somehow BJJ'ers and MMA'ers are mysteriously more likely to get attacked by five guys?

[Roland]

Re: im not trashing bjj or mma

Originally posted by Lightning&Earth
and thats exactly what BJJ and MMA does. it goes for the opioning and muscles thier way in to the position. if you are not muscleing your way in what then are you doing?

Actually, one highly ranked instructor in Yoshinkan Aikido (Mits Yamashita, 5th Dan) who is also a blue or purple belt in BJJ commented that BJJ is "Aikido on the ground". He also commented that Aikido and BJJ have the same principles. So I suppose either he doesn't know what he's talking about...or Aikido guys muscle their victims into kote-gaeshi or nikkyo.

[Lightning&Earth]

Roland

nothing mysterious about getting jumped by 5 guys,,whether or not you are an aikidoka or a Bjj or MMA person.
bjj and mma tend to be more competitive and aggresively motivated, those who wish to challenge usually do in those circles whereas in aikido there is no emphasis on competiton. since Aikido does not have any real competitions the mindset is not that of" i wonder if i could kick this guys ass" or sizeing up people on the bus or street as you walk by (a very common mindset in most martial arts but seldom admitted or talked about openly). there is a difference between kotogashi and mounting and tieing up the opponent on the ground. evidently there is more effort invloved in the ground scenario,,,,,,in aikido the less effort the better,,thats why there is a lot of evasive tactics in aikido rather than the rush in to take down that you find in Bjj or mma. so in effect Bjj and MMA are more aggressive. Nothing wrong with that persay,,,just not a principle in Aikido. as faras the 5th dan whomever that made the comment that Bjj is "aikido on the ground" i would beg to differ on that one. maybe similar techniques to subdue but it is definately NOT aikido. nor is aikido bjj.
Lightning and Earth

[Roland]

I don't think Sensei Mits Yamashita meant that BJJ is LITERALLY Aikido practiced on the ground. I believe he meant that the same principles of blending with your opponent and using his force against him applied in Aikido and BJJ.

Anyway, I give up.

[Ice Phoenix]

I give up too. You keep doing your Aikido and I'll keep cross-training BJJ & Kickboxing & Judo & JKD stuff. But just remember, never rely too much on any one system. Smart martial artists usually cross-train nowadays cause it has been realised that no single martial system is sufficient in the modern age. Total dependence on any 1 system is foolish as it applies to self-defense/fighting, but if 1 system makes you happy, that's all that counts!

[Brokenmace]

JKD isn't a system. It is a philosophy of looking at other systems and making them more efficient and simple. I know folks spout that mantra all the time, but it is the primary reason folks do MMA anyway in modern America. Before JKD philosophy, MA was horribly tribalistic.

An Aikidoka can practice JKD without ever talking to a JKD instructor. It is a matter of personal exploration and scientific observation.

The principles of JKD have been borne out. Folks only squable over technique, really.

All you need is a plan for the multiple ways of attack, and sound principles to act as "connective tissue" in order to employ them. Then train them hard. JKD provides this.

[GrdStorm]

Would you want to have BJJ/MMA/MT training when in a controntation or would you want to have an aikido backround? This is in a situation where u HAVE to fight, no if ands or buts about it.