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  • #16
    akja,
    Allow me to rephrase. Chi does exist, but not in the way that most people think of it. It does not allow you to levitate or be stabbed without a wound. In Eastern cultures, it is roughly translated as "air" or "breath." The magical nonsense aspect of it is largely a Western addition.

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    • #17
      traditional arts worh anything? YES!!

      Maybe not you, but a lot of people "misrepresent" the arts that hold on to the past. Theres nothingwrong with holding on to the past they'll just fall behind. All of our ancestral teachers adapted to change andmdified as needed to fit they're day and age. They did this all the way up to the 1900's but after that it stopped, they "major" changes didn't exist. In the west the arts were new, they were notready to be changed, now they are. Bruce Lee acknolwedged this but not enough people listened and we lost the greatest martial artist that should have been! Helio Gracie did his part in Brazil and there are some Americans that did the same here like Adriano Emperado, much respect to Sijo! The last 10 years have changed the martial arts more than the last 100 years. Thats a good thing, MMA won't go away, but we can't forget the past, its not right. BJJ is a hot art today and we respect the Gracies past and present, but who taught them? Traditioniam dosen't have to considered bad or non effective,its all about the indivdual, hich we all are. Like our ancestal teachers before us, its up to us today to adapt to todays environment, it is our responsibility to produce a better that is better than ourselves and most of us know what we have to do to make this happen. I crosstrain but I do have several "traditional senior instructors" who I look to for guidance in my "journey of the way".
      To make it simple, its not smart to bite the hand that feeds you.
      I KNOW I BABBLED OFF TRACK A BIT, BUT THIS DID ADDRESS THIS UNDERLYING QUESTION AS TO WHETHER THE TRADITIONAL ARTS ARE WORTH ANYTHING ANYMORE!

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      • #18
        Well, we dont see to many chinese pa kua fighters in the UFC.

        Thier was a time when these styles were respected, at a time. Perhaps thier not practiced the way they should have been. Who knows. Some of these arts have an exellent concept(karate does, but it sucks) but thier is to much garbage in it to let it be useful.

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        • #19
          How thick is your skull! THE UFC IS NOT A STYLE!!!! in the ufc they punch! How many bjj schools teach boxing? How many boxing stables teach grappling? THERE IS NO PURE ARTS DISPLYED IN THE UFC OR ANY OTHER MMA COMPETITION.PERIOD!!!! Your own experience reflects your judgement. All arts have some thing to offer, they just take different paths. But they have the same destination! THE UFC, PRIDE, WFA, IVC, ALL OF THEM, ISN'T THE ULTIMATE TESTING GROUND! In "reality" there are all kinds of ways to get in a better position when your about to get the ground and pound, but the rules get in the way! MMA competition is the best "regulated testing ground" in my opinion, BUT REAL FIGHTING CONSISTS OF SO MUCH MORE THAN YOU'LL SEE ON ANY SCREEN!! By the way, all of the arts represented in the UFC, including all of the grappling arts are modified. NOTHING IS PURE IN FREESTYLE COMPETITION! The only thing you or anybody else has proved is that these styles don't have any known fighters. If you want to use MMA competition to judge your arts then you better go to Brazil, but not the highly publicized, but in the small towns with the local fighters where the rules are a lot more closer to what "Vale Tudo", anything goes! I'm making claims for any of the traditional systems except, every student starts somewhere, theres beginning instruction, intermediate and advanced. The instructor is your guide.
          BUT FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ARE STUBBURN AND THINK ONLY MMA IS ENOUGH, THEN SO BE IT, YOUR DESTINY IS SHARED ONLY BY YOU. WHEN YOUR BODY CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE, THE COUCH IS WAITING FOR YOU! I PERSONALL HAVE BEEN ON THE MAT WITH A "PRO" FIGHTER THAT WAS A STUTTERING FROM BEING PUCH DRUNK AND WAS ONLY 22 YEARS OLD! I'M SURE HE'S ON THE COUCH BY NOW!!

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          • #20
            You live in a fantsayland.

            Back when the UFC first came around the rules were much different and the fighters were just people who trained in respective arts, not pro fighters. You saw groin strikes, hair pulling, people putting their fingers into other peoples mouths, fingers to the throat......

            Nobody was able to do any of the bullshiit they had always claimed they could.

            I'll say this again:

            If you wan't to see a "true" martial artist defend himself under TRULY no-rules, then go over to www.mcdojo.com and you can see GRANDMASTER William Cheung defend himself from Emin Boztepe when he was jumped at a seminar. Both of them looked worse than junior high school kids fighting over pokemon cards.

            When your done you can take a look at ANOTHER video and see what happens when a blue belt in BJJ fights with NO RULES a Kung Fu instructor with an open challenge. He breaks his arm in about 30 seconds.

            Ahhh.....but there is SO much more to that DEEP and TOTALLY INTRICATE notion of punching someone in the nose or kicking them in the nuts.

            For YEARS the public was BULLSHIITED by these people into believeing that martial arts masters were somehow more than just some guy who knw how to punch and kick.

            Thank GOD everyone is a little wiser today and these FRAUDS can't continue to STEAL peoples money in exchange for teaching them some good techniques amidst a bunch of useless nonsense.

            Well.....everyone but YOU are is more the wiser anyway....

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            • #21
              THE UFC, PRIDE, WFA, IVC, ALL OF THEM, ISN'T THE ULTIMATE TESTING GROUND! In "reality" there are all kinds of ways to get in a better position when your about to get the ground and pound, but the rules get in the way! MMA competition is the best "regulated testing ground" in my opinion, BUT REAL FIGHTING CONSISTS OF SO MUCH MORE THAN YOU'LL SEE ON ANY SCREEN!!
              akja,
              If you're speaking to me, you're preaching to the choir. However, I have no tolerance for traditional "masters" who claim to teach self defense or "reality." Same thing goes for MMA. However, MMA athletes are much more combat-ready than most traditionalists will ever be. The idea of "if I go to the ground with Mr. BJJ Blackbelt, I'll just eye gouge him" is ignorant. I'm sure that you do not hold this belief, as you have been exposed to a number of arts, and as an extension, understand the strengths and weaknesses of each. People like KungFuPanda, on the other hand, believe that "most UFC fighters suck." See the pitfall here? A legitimate fighting style/art is not be rendered completely helpless by rules.

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              • #22
                I'm not the one in fantasy land. I didn't specifically name any techniques to get into a better postition and you guys don't seem to under the term "gett into a better position", I didn't say how to end the fight or anything of the sort! And way back when the UFC started is old news, the arts have changed morein the last 10 years than they have in the last 100 years. The proof is the pudding! The reality is bjj has fallen behind today too! THE UFC HAS PROVEN THIS OVER AND OVER. NO PURE ART IS ENOUGH!! THE BJJ YOU SEE IN THE UFC IS MODIFIED!! I'm not a grappler at heart although I do love grappling and I did spend the last 3 years on the mat in a bjj school. I've fixed a lot of areas where I was week. I've done exactly what I preached! I reached out to other arts to compliment my shortcomings. When I've spoken about the traditional arts, I never said anything about the masters that make false claims, they are they're own, they've chosen they're own path. And by the way by the standards of the 2002, bjj is a traditional art!
                PLEASE EXCUSE MY IGNORACE, PLEASE!
                I don't beleive in kung-foolery either! I still say that TODAY there is no PURE art represented in MMA thats wins on its own merits. Iftheydon't crosstrain they don't win! And we can a lot from the old masters! Their time is past, its up to us make the adjstments in what practice and teach. In 50 or 75 years and mma has really evolved, how much respect will Helio Gracie get? Theres already all kinds of people disrespecting him now.
                MY BIGGEST MISUNDERTOOD POINT THAT PROVES MIGHT IS:
                that the whole martial art world would be a total mess if the traditional arts never existed! The whole seen would be dominated by Tank Abbot impersonators and it would be weak and boring!! BJJ is a great art and it evolved from the traditional arts and so did Vale Tudo. If I had to choose betweenthe 2 I'd take the Vale Tudo. A good example is in Brazil, ookat the Lua Livre fighters andthe lack ofther repect for Helio.
                AND LASTLY EVEN THOUGH I NEVER USED THE EYE GOUGE AS AN EXAMPLE LIKE YOU DID, LETS USE IT JUST FOR YOU! YOUR ON YOUR BAC HE'S IN YOUR GAURD POUDING YOU, YOU HOLD IN TIGHT, BUT HE GETS LOOSE ENOUGH TO POUND AND POUND AN EYE GOUGE "CAN" GET YOU IN TO A "BETTER POSITION" TO COUNTER WITH AN ARMBAR, TRIANGLE, WHATEVER, MAYBE GIVE YOU ENOUGH OF AN OPENING TO GET BACK TO YOUR FEET!
                I never stated that any of the pure kung-fu or karate arts art enough by themselves. The martial arts ave changed to much for any of them to be enough including your favorite art, if it is pure.
                Have a good day in fantasy land!
                Last edited by akja; 12-15-2002, 06:08 PM.

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                • #23
                  The UFC is now olympic level athletes who all train in the exact same techniqus. It is no longer a good representation of what would happen in a real confrontation. If you want to see what "style" is superior you have to go to the early Vale Tudo's or the early UFC's.

                  We have yet to see a smaller man defeat a larger man using only strikes. We have CONSITENTLY seen a smaller man defeat larger men with grappling and submission.

                  We STILL see Vitor Riberio choke the 5th ranked shootfighter unconsious in less than one minute without throwing a single strike. After that we saw him choke Joe Hurley from the Lion's Den unconsious after taking him down whenever he felt like it.

                  A smaller person CAN submit or disable a larger one in a real cofrontation using grappling.

                  It would be idiotic to ask the same smaller man to strike at a larger person who has longer reach, is aggressive, stronger and can take more punishment because of greater mass.

                  Not a very hard thing to understand.

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                  • #24
                    "Real"PDShaolin

                    You wrote:
                    It would be idiotic to ask the same smaller man to strike at a larger person who has longer reach, is aggressive, stronger and can take more punishment because of greater mass.
                    Though I agree with the rest of your posts, I am forced to disagree with this statement. Striking is the fastest way to disable an assailant, large or small. Especially outside the bounds of sport. If one hits (not necessarily punches) with sufficient power to a point that no muscle or fat can effectively protect (throat, eyes, chin, knees etc), then there is a high probability of neutralizing a larger man. It's been seen time and again. However, telling a very small man to try to box a committed assailant twice his size or saying "just hit him in the throat" probably won't get the small guy much except a visit to the plasitc surgeon. Tell the same thing to a small guy with training, and you might have a winner. Ruthlessness, power, and compound attack can deal with a great many people. Systems like the WW II combatives are built around that idea. Though I have no way to prove it here, I have knocked out one man who outweighed me by at least 80 lbs. with a cross to the jaw, and used strikes to deal with a few more. Granted, I'm not small, but the fact is, striking has worked for me in the past when the odds were "stacked" against me.

                    That said, I would never dismiss grappling (you have to study it to be effective). A larger/stronger opponent or just one that won't give up will very likely take you to the ground if he wants to--regardless of how well you hit. That alone makes it necessary. Groundfighting has been proved to work for smaller people as well. It's just not my range of choice.

                    Just my .02 cents

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                    • #25
                      Agreed. I will always grapple, its about 35% of my system. But I'd prefer to be on my feet and if I have to go down, I have to try end it quick or get into a better position to end it, forget the nonsense, break something, thats real to me. So how can I teach this? Well my students have spend a lot of mat time grappling. All the submissions in the world won't work if they can't keep control of they're opponent.
                      YOU KNOW THERES NO "I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG" IN THESE FORUMS.
                      What works for me, fails for the next guy. When I stated grappling, I thought I would be there forever, but if your like me, and come from a JKD school before you hit the mats, there will be a time limit on on your BJJ experience. I see to many things that they will never see. Thats why I had to accept the fact that I could never be a top competitor in a sport bjj format. But I'm damn good at controlling the situation at hand, and from a standup point of view, thats as best as it gets, "for me". As long as I'm in control, he isn't and the breaks will come, thats my reality.
                      One thing I stress anyone I teach, is if your n grappling range, so is he. Meaning anything you try at this range he can try too and possibly be better than you. You don't box a boxer and you don't grapple a grappler. You have to force him to fight "your fight".
                      See ya.

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                      • #26
                        Good post, akja. About grappling, as far as I see it, there are really two kinds. There's "skill" grappling, which involves choking, pain, armbars, etc., and there's "dirty" grappling. If I end up in an arguement with Ryan/Rickson/Royce Gracie (this one's for Spanky. Maybe he'll [Gracie] come here to defend himself) and he takes me down, I am sure as hell not going to try to match him skill for skill. I would lose 100 out of 100 times. I would, however, take each one of those ten fingers that he's using to grab me and remove them from his hands (not some aikido finger lock, I mean REMOVE). There are no guarantees, but I am confident that doing something like that would improve my chances considerably. Don't get me wrong, I like BJJ and groundfighting. It's important. However, there can be more immediately effective things to do on the ground than go for submission when faced with a much larger or more skilled opponent. Skill is always nice to possess, but as William Fairbairn said, "the only unfair fight is the one you lose."
                        Last edited by ryanhall; 12-15-2002, 08:20 PM.

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                        • #27
                          But if grappling is so bad, then why is that human beings instinctively do so? We do see Thai fighters knocking around brawlers easily. Maybe other Thai fighters could screw him up. But we do see warriors that are tiny knock around a far bigger guy in a fight, with greater reach, even outside of the ufc, in tiny tournies in thailand, and other places with almost no rules.

                          It HAS happened, though the chances of the guy with more reach will, most probably win, unless the tiny bastard is a HELL of alot more talented. Still, that does not negate the fact that it is possible.

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                          • #28
                            Possible but highly improbable.

                            I'm a small guy but I've fought in tournaments that were full contact. I've had my nose broken and it never stopped me(and I don't consider myself a particularly tough person). I just think its ALOT harder than most people would have us believe.

                            Those disadvantages I mentioned above are real bro. And remember that, in all likelyhood, in a real situation YOU'RE going to be struck first. If it was the other way around YOU would be attacking HIM. When someone attacks someone they usually don't do it with their hands up like boxers. They jump you and try and hurt you because thier mad or they want something from you.

                            Staying on your feet would ALWAYS be a smart move but I just don't think its realistic to think we can do that against a bigger, stronger person most of the time.

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                            • #29
                              I don't think grappling is bad, its a important piece of the puzzle. for the street its a dangerous range to be in. In the ring its been proven to be very effective and important range that needs to be at a minmum understood. In the street the more dangerous it gets because not only do you have to deal with your opponent, you have to consider anybody else around that might be in the mood to do some stomping. If your in a location to get in a fight, chances are there are more people around that like to fight. Regardless, all ranges need to be practiced in some fashion. There really is no better art, it all adds up to what you perform better. We can practice 50% standup and 50% groundwork for any given amount of time and its most probable that we are going to excel in one more than the other. Its natural. There really is a lot of standup that people don't understand so they think it won't work. Traditional Jujitsu is one of those arts. People are in a hurry and don't have the time to learn the lethal aspects of this type of style. If you only want to put a year into it, then maybe it won't work. But the senior masters in these arts have a lot to share with us. Think about it, if it was worthless, then where did bjj come from originally. Bjj went its own way, but theres a lot that probably wasn't taught to the Brazilians, because its normal for a teacher to teach what he thinks is best. Besides it would be ignorant to think that if you were skilled in traditional Jujitsu that you coudn't use it while on your back. Then theres the nerve centers. If your sneaky (wouldn't be allowed in a competition) theres a couple of techniques that will actually make your opponent give you his neck. Its not worth arguing about it, I was showed this before I ever practiced Jujitsu. Nerve centers are excellent targets from any range. People are going to argue this, but it dosn't matter. You can't force feed anybody. But what I will tell you is that my site with be available for the public very soon and anything that I teach that others aren't willing to accept, its all the better for me. I'm not making any claims of any type what so ever. I'm just saying, anything that makes my students better, I'm not going to just giveaway on the internet so anybody can view it, incorporate it and say it is theirs. Thats where I'm at, you show, I'll know if I can make it work. I'm just an ordinary guy thats seen a little of this and a little that. I've taken classe from some high level grappling instructors that I know I would never be able to touch on their turf. So I keep that in mind when I teach. I use my experience as a foundtion, then we try to round it off with what is needed for all the ranges and we see where we need to fix the weak areas. Most importantly all students learn all ranges. Its just not the same training you'll likely see around. On the outside it may appear so, but if a student stays long enough they will see. Its overkill to spend 10 years on one range. 10 years should be spent on all ranges. No doubt its nearly impossible to beat somebody at their own game. But if I'm going down, I'd rather take control of the sitauation, then bust em up a bit and punish him for making me get dirty!
                              Hope you enjoyed my insight!
                              Last edited by akja; 12-16-2002, 02:27 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Hold on a sec here guys. I've been taking a TKD class for a couple months now, and my instuctors are not teaching me that a punch to the face will solve all your problems in a fight. I am being told that, "Hey, you might wanna pull this guys arm behind his back, kick him in the face, trip him, and then repeatedly strike him while hes on the ground." I havent been taught that somebody can be beaten simply by strikes. Does this differ from the Tae Kwon Do you are talking about?

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