About Real life 'Street Grappling' (JuJutsu) not for the Ring

[ryanhall]

Hey, David. It's nice to have someone of your stature on the forum.

You wrote:

BJJ maybe, I don't know. As for GJJ, Rorion Gracie has said that he wouldn't try and go to the ground or get to tied up with a guy with a bunch of buddies backing him up. That's just common sense.

You're right, that is common sense. Unfortunately, common sense isn't all that common. However, you should NEVER go to the ground of your own volition (unless you are getting the crap beaten out of you in punching range) because it is often not easy to tell who your bg's "buddies" are. Also, "innocent" bystanders often become deadly opponents when your head is by their feet. For that reason alone, going to the ground is foolish (note: one still needs to know groundfighting because of the possibility of the fight going there, but your priority should be to get your ass off the ground immediately if not sooner). Weapons add an even nastier face to a groundfighting situation.

Regardless of what some people might say, I don't think any system of self-defense can really prepare a person to deal with multiple attackers. However, if there is a system like that out there then it should be displayed at an MMA venue for the world to see.

Well, your comment about an MMA venue is a very common pitfall. Plain and simple, one does not use MMA to survive an extremely violent attack in the real life. Your question about a system, well, here's a start: the system should specialize in punching and CQC range, the system should rely heavily on pre-contact psychology to set up one or more potential attackers for a debilitating first strike, the system should rely on "foul" tactics in a multiple attacker situaion, and the system should NOT be sport or competition based. I could name a few more, but I'm sure that you see where I'm headed with this. Like you said, no system allows a student to survive multiple attackers--that is up to the mentality of the practitioner. However, some systems prepare you MUCH better than others. If you don't believe me, I would be glad to direct you to some people/sites where you could gain some more insight. In fact, one lives/teaches in your neck of the woods.

Happy Holidays,
Ryan

[eskrima]

Originally posted by Ice Phoenix
The fact is that the safest place to be when fighting a larger opponent is first in the clinch, and then even better, on the ground. Striking with a larger opponent isn't a good strategy.

Really ?? If I remember correctly, Marco Ruas didn't get near Paul Varelans in UFC 7.

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Hey, David. It's nice to have someone of your stature on the forum.

However, some systems prepare you MUCH better than others. If you don't believe me, I would be glad to direct you to some people/sites where you could gain some more insight. In fact, one lives/teaches in your neck of the woods.

Happy Holidays,
Ryan

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the very nice welcome. I agree with your statement above. I have trained with some of Hock Hochiem's instructors and once with Hock himself. They are all very tactical in their instruction and methods. They certainly opened my eyes to pitfalls and dangers that I did not before consider.

[MrPoopy]

Really ?? If I remember correctly, Marco Ruas didn't get near Paul Varelans in UFC 7.

But is Marco Ruas a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu™ practitioner? I thought he was one of thos Lotta Liver guys?

[Gerald Boggs]

It never ceases to amaze me. People that do not spar full speed and full contact with anything goes rules, still try to give people advice about fighting. How do I know that, because anyone that is sparring under the old Gracie challange rules, has long stopped training in anything but GJJ, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, or muay thai. Or a blend of any of the above. I still get TKD, karate, and kung fu guys coming in to my place and telling me what will work in a 'real fight'. They have all gone down to the ground and tapped. Then the knife word comes up, Well grapplers use knifes too. Then bitting, eye poking, and all the other nasty stuff. Well, who is in a better position to do those things, then the guy in control. If you want your ass taken to the ground, don't train the clinch. If you want to stay on the ground, don't train ground fighting and gjj is the best method.
Gerald Boggs

[ryanhall]

It never ceases to amaze me. People that do not spar full speed and full contact with anything goes rules, still try to give people advice about fighting. How do I know that, because anyone that is sparring under the old Gracie challange rules, has long stopped training in anything but GJJ, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, or muay thai. Or a blend of any of the above. I still get TKD, karate, and kung fu guys coming in to my place and telling me what will work in a 'real fight'. They have all gone down to the ground and tapped. Then the knife word comes up, Well grapplers use knifes too. Then bitting, eye poking, and all the other nasty stuff. Well, who is in a better position to do those things, then the guy in control. If you want your ass taken to the ground, don't train the clinch. If you want to stay on the ground, don't train ground fighting and gjj is the best method.

Nobody said GJJ wasn't an excellent method of groundfighting or fighting in general. The fact that you train with a knife doesn't make you immune to one, and when you are applying a submission, one can easily come out and ruin your day. The same thing goes for foul tactics. Don't spar full speed and full contact? Firstoff, "anything goes" is definitely not NHB, and I doubt if most people would still fight under the old Gracie Challenge rules if you asked them. And even with those rules, the fight is still 1 v 1, emptyhanded, and mutually agreed upon. Secondly, nobody started preaching TKD or Karate. If one doesn't train full contact against resistance, one can not pull all those moves that they have been working so hard against the air.

To my knowledge, nobody has argued against what you have stated here. You're right about full contact and training all ranges, but no matter how "no holds barred" the training is, it is still training.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ice Phoenix

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has proven itself time and time again. Anyone who thinks it only works "on the mat" and not "on the street" is a moron. Sure GJJ doesn't have all the answers, but it has the most!

I take issue with your statement here. Are you calling me a moron? I would have thought better from you, but now I see I was wrong.



This argument has taken on many different facets. I believe the original argument is 'whether or not to go to the ground in a self defense situation.' This quickly morphed into the more pro-anti-GJJ argument.

Szczepankiewicz the Exasperated

[Guest]

I both agree and disagree with Schizo on this. Just because someone says going to the ground is not the best thing to do in the street, there is no need for people to come out of the wood work and say "look how well GJJ it has done in competition!"

However, if one of those people calls Schizo a moron, well maybe there IS something to their argument after all, as they obviously judge character well.

[Gerald Boggs]

It's not whether you decide to take it to the ground, it's what are you going to do when the big dude takes puts you on the ground. Most of the fights I had in my younger days, If not ended quickly, when to the ground. Whether you train gjj/bjj or wrestling, you have to train fighting on the ground. GJJ is simpily the best on the ground, so why take the advice of those that haven't gone down the path.
Gerald Boggs

[Guest]

True. However the increasing sporting element is a sure sign that GJJ or BJJ or whatever is on the way to financial security and reduced effectiveness.

But thats a whole other thread.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Bitty,

I know you are, but what am I?
I know you are, but what am I?
I know you are, but what am I?

Love Spanky

[eskrima]

Originally posted by MrPoopy


But is Marco Ruas a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu™ practitioner? I thought he was one of thos Lotta Liver guys?

I did not see any reference to GJJ in the paragraph that I quoted. I took the statement:

"The fact is that the safest place to be when fighting a larger opponent is first in the clinch, and then even better, on the ground. Striking with a larger opponent isn't a good strategy. "

as an absolute. While this may be true to some degree, I do not believe this to be an absolute - especially if the weight difference is too great or the skill set of both fighters is close. The marcos Ruas was just an example. If you look at Marco Ruas' victories, most were by submission ( at least the ones on his web site).

[CHOKE UK]

Originally posted by NAJJFDAVE


Well, since you said that, Rorion Gracie has made this available on video. This particular match up is on the video "GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN ACTION 2." You can buy it at
http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/home_videos.html for $49.95. I recommend all of the videos from Rorion Gracie, but the two In Action videos are really neat to watch. They show a lot of match ups with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu against other martial arts. These were all prior to the first UFC in 1993. Bascally, at that time, not too many people outside of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or Kosen Judo had a clue about how to fight from the ground. In Action 2 has Rorion, Royler, Royce, and others, taking on all challengers. It's a great tape for anyone that wants to see just how dominating this style of fighting is.

How do these tapes compare to other nhb tapes ?????
Are they worth getting in comparison to vale tudo/pride/caged combat etc????
Only they have a special offer on at the moment !!!

[CHOKE UK]

............also what is the picture quality like ???????

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by CHOKE UK


How do these tapes compare to other nhb tapes ?????
Are they worth getting in comparison to vale tudo/pride/caged combat etc????
Only they have a special offer on at the moment !!!

That depends on what your interest is. The purpose of the tapes is to show how effective Graice Jiu-Jitsu is against other styles and systems. The quality is good and the video is clear, but it isn't a Pride style production.

The footage on the tapes are prior to 1992. So, with exception of what takes place in Brazil, no one was much of a match for the Gracies...meaning that the fights last less than a minute. It's pretty obvious that in most of the fights, the Gracie practitioner is just toying with the other fighter.