About Real life 'Street Grappling' (JuJutsu) not for the Ring

[Hardball]

Hey Hardball, do you train in Japanese Jujitsu or kenpo?

What do you think of the kenpo-jujitsu system (Larry Tatum I think)?

I train in japanese jujitsu. (Shodan). I'm not familiar with Larry Tatum's system. I try and cross train in everything I can get my hands on but my expertise is in Jujitsu.

[bodhisattva]

Boggs: agreement.

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Guys: If you see some guy get into a fight, and it goes to the ground, and people not involved with the fight at all start kicking him in the head : then hang out some place new... period.

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However, I still agree with what people are saying: don't go to the ground if you can help it in an unknown situation where the guy might have buddies..etc.

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However, what if you can't keep it from going to the ground? What then?

Well, I'll tell you what then: your opponent has caught you with your pants down, basically. The back door is open, and he's going to slide the groceries in the rear, to be colorful about it.

Train all ranges. Train to strike while unattached. Train the clinch with striking. Train the ground. Train no gi. Train with gi. Etc.

That's the way I see to do it.

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"We can all go into "Psycho-Wolverine-You're-threatening-my-wife-and-kids-now-you-must-die" mode, and we have striking, weapons, and dirty tactics training to make those attacks somewhat more sophisticated if the need should arrise. But BJJ offers additional solutions when that type of brutality is not necessary or practical."

Agreed. I would also say BJJ serves as a DELIVERY METHOD for the dirty tricks, too. Much as you said about Rigan: you can bite Rigan if you want to, but I'm pretty sure he'll bite you back, and you won't be able to stop him once he starts.

Well said, Lobdell..

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[jhinds]

Is this 1992 or 2004?

A few things that people forget in these threads.

Adrenaline - does your training include it? Slow, comfortable dancing with your partner in KayRotee class doesn't count in a physical conflict. Neither do backfists that stop an inch away from your partner's head during TKD sparring.

Dynamic Training Methodology - how exactly do you practice the eye plucking and scrotum evisceration techniques in a semi to full contact method?

Muscle Memory - If your training does not include training techniques against an unwilling opponent at near full speed/contact with adrenaline levels high, how do you expect to call upon these techniques when in a frightening and dangerous situation and your body becomes filled with adrenaline?

Here is a what if for ya:

You aren't in a disgusting, glass/syringe floored biker bar filled with packs of guys flying high on PCP just waiting to knife a guy, but rather a not so crowded establishment or friends apartment with a lightly carpeted floor. After a couple of quick, poorly chosen words, a guy throws a crappy looping overhand right to your head. As you begin to unleash your onslaught of deadly ancient techniques on him that you practiced slowly in class, your body fills with adrenaline and you freeze up. The right hand connects partially, and since he is all juiced up on adrenaline too, he over extends and falls into you knocking you both to the floor with him on top. The fall doesn't injure you, but the shock of being on the ground with someone on top of you for the first time boosts the adrenaline and terror.

So here you are. On your back, in terror. Sensei Bob said this would never happen, so you never practised anything from the ground much less in real time with someone that wasn't playing along. Now you lay there like a first-day BJJ student and make all the normal ground-ignorant mistakes. This enables the guy to throw a couple of weak punches that bounce your head off the lighty carpeted floor a few times before an employee of the establishment or friend breaks it up.

I choose not to frequent the places where the roving hordes of knife-weilding maniacs do their socializing, but more often I am in a place/situation like the one above. In that circumstance, a pragmatic grappling art with a dynamic training methodology would serve me well enough to end the conflict with or without hurting the other person.

Just another perspective to consider. But let's hear more about the 400lb monsters on crack, that's a lot more fun to read

[MindFighter]

1 - No martial art will save anyone from multiple attackers or weapons in real life. Forget It.

2 - Karate, TKD, KungFu, Aikido, Japanese JJ and all TMAs who rely on flashy moves, lack of full resisting sparring and/or spiritual phylosophies are useless, UNLESS against an average nerd, where ANY physical conditioning plus basic punching training will do the job.

3 - Grappling/submission dramatically improve the odds of a win against a non-grappler, no matter the size. So it is the CORE training, since anyone can punch.

4 - No matter if you train gi or no gi, once you properly learn the positional dynamics and the holds, and understand how to apply it street wise. You must be SMART, in SHAPE and have a STRONG MIND to to that. Sometimes its compared to BODY CHESS dont forget.

5 - A street fight has many RANDOM variables already mentioned: the environment, clothing, drugs, and so on. ITS ALWAYS VERY DANGEROUS TO FIGHT ON THE STREETS. One person can do no more than maximize his ODDS OF SURVIVING a street fight, and its basically done with solid jiu jitsu knowledge and confidence. Additional boxing, muay-thai, wrestling or judo knowledge will very much help on this task.

6 - Only a moron would belive MMA and street fights are the same. On the streets, you are risking your life for real, with tons of unpredictable factors, and this awareness must be always ON during the fight. Its not a shame to not fight FAIR;

[Hermosa]

The Aliveness and Gnosis qualities of the BJJ training method are so wonderful. They bring reality into focus and promote true inner peace....

How do you get to world peace? You get to world peace through inner peace. If you have a world full of people with inner peace..you have a peaceful world. So actually..BJJ is the answer to Nuclear War also.


BJJ Freak.

[bbbb]

what the?

The Aliveness and Gnosis qualities of the BJJ training method are so wonderful. They bring reality into focus and promote true inner peace....

How do you get to world peace? You get to world peace through inner peace. If you have a world full of people with inner peace..you have a peaceful world. So actually..BJJ is the answer to Nuclear War also.


BJJ Freak.

what is gnosis quality?

How does brazillian Jui Jitsu learn to cover up properly for a punch?

How did Royce Gracie learn this? Did he (ummaghh), x-train?

As for world peace: all we ever get told is, "It's all about respose-ability _____!"

[BjjLoco]

SBG view on Street vs Sport

[source: http://www.straightblastgym.com/street03.htm]

A Tired Debate

I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.

Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).

You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.

Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.

Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.

Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain That's involved in earning that strong base.

I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think That's fine. But That's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.

Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.

This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them. -Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton

[CKD]

The bases for sd and mma are the same. If a person asked me what would be good to learn for mma I would probaly mention mt/boxing for striking, wrestling, judo, or sambo for takedowns, and judo, sambo, or bjj for ground fighting. If a person aksed for good bases for the street my list would probaly remain the same only I might add some weapon defenses. Interestingly Joe Moreira has a tape on bjj defenses against multiple attackers and weapons.... Has anyone seen them. Thanks for the article for sbgi. They have plenty of great articles on mma vs the tma and rsbd. I would like to point out the fact that they have a video on bjj for the streets. Now how different is this from typical bjj? Not much. It basically shows bjj adapted for strikes and also some defenses against dirty tatics which is as simple as turning your head when applying a shoulder lock so they can not claw your eyes.

[BjjLoco]

I can't remember which SBG tape it was, but I recall one of them saying you take a guy who is proficient in BJJ and add some street elements and he will be able to adapt very quicky. Conversely it will take someone who doesn't do alive training a helluva lot longer because he doesn't have that base.

No one is saying to jump guard in the streets, but to say groin shots, bites and scratches will stop an assailant who has mounted you is very ignorant.

Here are some other clips if anyone wants to know what aliveness is all about

http://www.canadas-best.com/images/aliveness_intro.wmv

For all the fantasy people and dim mak believers - hiya

http://www.canadas-best.com/images/fantasy.wmv

[bodhisattva]

Yeah. "Base" = delivery system.

Boxing, I think, is a good example.

You can show a wing chun eye gouge to some guy on the street. It won't do him much more good than watching a moe, larry and curly eye gouge on the big screen. Basically, he's some shlep, and you've told him "A poke to the eye hurts." He already knew this. So what have you done to make him a more effective fighter? Nothing.

You can show a guy who has boxed a couple of years an eye gouge. You can show him how to hold his hand and some of the dangers.

You can put them in the ring together. Who do you think will get his eye gouged out? Modern shlep-man couldn't hit the boxer in the HEAD if he wanted to, much less the eyes. The boxer, he can hit the other man in the head pretty much at will.

It's about delivery system. How does one get a delivery system? He fights resisting opponents.

Just wanted to add to your points, Bjjloco.

[HtTKar]

For all the fantasy people and dim mak believers - hiya

http://www.canadas-best.com/images/fantasy.wmv

"Like many beginners, you attacked me wrong"

These videos are a great, thanks.

[Spider Web]

I agree with everyone that the ground is the last place that you want to end up in a fight, however, should you end up there whether you intented to or not, it sure would be nice to have some ground fighting skills.

Regards,
Chris

[kurt_myers0369]

Going to the ground is never a good idea...

I practice BJJ and muay thai, so my opinion is in no way biased by the style I choose to learn. But as a veteran of numerous "real life situations" I can tell you going to the ground intentionally is NEVER a good idea. You'll almost always end up getting kicked in the head by a third party. The best way to end an encounter is to end it QUICKLY. As far as the weapons debate, what happens when a guy pulls a knife? The answer is easy, RUN. There's no shame in not getting stabbed. Multiple foes is another big topic. I have an answer... Why not arm yourself? Its amazing what you can do with a 2 inch blade. Even against multiple attackers. Check out Atienza Kali's website or their training videos against multiple attackers... simply amazing. If you want to be able to defend yourself in a real life situation, dont take BJJ. Try a filipino martial arts style, AKA sayoc kali, atienza, or Inosanto. and carry a knife! I love muy thai and BJJ, but if I'm on the street and a situation arises where I feel my life is in danger. I'm glad i trained filipino knife fighting for 18 months while I was in Iraq. I'll feel alot better about my chances.

[sapatiero]

A 4 year old thread?

Wow - someone's desperate to bash bjj

[Hardball]

A 4 year old thread?

Wow - someone's desperate to bash bjj

At least it's got a 4 star rating. ha ha. Somebody opened up the old Samauri vs Knight thread--and that one has a 5 star rating.